我为什么热衷于翻译《尚书》

今年是中英文化交流年。年初，英国首相卡梅伦在庆祝中国农历新年的贺词中提到，2015年中英关系将迎来“黄金时代”。在主席出访英国前夕，《党建》杂志、党建网于10月8日专门邀请英国爱丁堡公爵菲利普亲王的特别顾问、英国汉学家Martin Palmer（中文名：彭马田）来做客，就中英文化交流的一些话题进行了采访。

Wang： I know that you are a translator of many Chinese classic books， like the Shang Shu， the Zhuang Zi， and the Yi Jing. I am very curious about how did you fall in love with Chinese culture and such Chinese classic books？

王：你是《尚书》《庄子》《易经》等中国古籍经典英文版的翻译者。我很好奇你是如何对中国文化和这些中国古籍经典产生兴趣的？

Martin： Well， when I was 18 years old， I went to Hong Kong to work in a Christian home. That taught me basic classical Chinese. Then， I went to Cambridge University. In Cambridge， I studied theology and religious studies， and classical Chinese. That deepened my knowledge. You have a good question about why I was interested in the classics. When I got to Hong Kong in 1972， I realized that in the whole of my time in school in England， I had never studied anything about Chinese philosophy， Chinese history or Chinese religion.

彭马田：我18岁的时候来到香港，在一个基督教家庭工作，这段经历让我认识了简单的繁体中文。后来，（回到英国），我来到剑桥大学学习。在剑桥我的专业是神学宗教研究和中国古文，这增加了我的中文知识。你提了一个很好的问题：我为什么会对中国古籍经典产生兴趣。我1972年回到香港，我意识到我在英国受到的所有教育都没有让我对中国哲学、中国历史和中国宗教有所了解。

I studied nothing about China. So I was hungry to find out this wonderful and complex culture that I was in. I just simply read every book that I could lay my hands on about China. But I found that a lot of the translations were quite clumsy and quite bad. I just thought that somebody would do a better translation. Few years later， I started to do so.

我对于中国什么都没有学到。所以我非常渴求了解这个我所处的神奇而深奥的文化。于是，我立即把我手边每一本关于中国的书都拿出来读了一遍。但是我发现许多英译书非常差强人意。我就想有没有人可以做一些精彩的翻译呢？于是，没过几年，我就开始了这项工作。

Wang： When and why did you really decide to translate them？

王：什么时候你正式决定翻译中国古籍经典？有什么样的契机？

Martin： There was the only book the people in the West knew from China――the Yi Jing. They knew that， but that was a terrible translation. I thought I had to go， and I thought it was the most difficult book to translate of all.

彭马田：当时，西方人唯一知道的来自中国的书是《易经》，尽管为人所知，但是这本书翻译得并不好。我意识到了自己翻译的责任，同时我也认为它在我翻译的所有著作中是最难的一本。

I should say at the beginning that I do not think I translate. I interpret. I do not think it is possible to translate from one culture to another. What you can do is to interpret one culture to another. So this culture understands a bit more about that culture.

首先我需要指出的是，我并不认为我自己是在翻译，其实我是在解读。一种文化是不能被翻译成另一种文化的，我们能做的是将一种文化向另一种文化进行解读。不同文化间也会因此加深对彼此的了解。

Wang： There are the two books from you. They are the Shang Shu and the Zhuang Zi. There are a huge amount of Chinese classic books. Why did you choose these two？

王：这两本书是你的翻译作品：《尚书》和《庄子》。众所周知，中国古籍经典浩如烟海，你为什么要选择这两本来翻译呢？

Martin： As I said， I have already translated the Dao De Jing. Other than the Bible and the Koran， the Dao De Jing is the most translated book in the world. My feeling is， having worked with Taoist now for 30 years， that the Dao De Jing is very important. If you want to catch the spirit of Taoism， you should read the Zhuang Zi because the Dao De Jing has no jokes and funny bits in it. The Zhuang Zi is full of jokes. So I think if you want to get the spirit of Taoism， you should read the Zhuang Zi. If you want the philosophy of Taoism， you should read the Dao De Jing.

彭马田：正如我所说，我已经翻译了《道德经》。除了《圣经》和《古兰经》，《道德经》是世界上被翻译最多的书籍。研究道家三十年来，我的感受是《道德经》非常重要。但是，如果你想抓住道家的思想精髓，你应该读《庄子》。因为《道德经》里面没有幽默，而《庄子》里却是满篇幽默而轻松的故事。所以我认为，如果你想理解道家的思想，去读《庄子》。如果你想弄懂道家的哲学，去读《道德经》。

What I love about the Shang Shu is if you want to understand the way， in which Chinese culture is rooted in history， you should read the Shang Shu. The Shang Shu is a very radical book. It teaches hierarchy， teaches the respect to the emperor， but it also teaches that the emperor only has the right to rule because of the mandate of heaven. If the people feel that the mandate of heaven has been lost by the emperor， they have the right to overthrow the emperor.

So I think it is an important book. I think it is the oldest history book of China. I think it reveals to the West an understanding of the continuity of Chinese history from Xia and Shang， right the way through to the present day. Unless you read the Shang Shu， I do not think you can understand China today.

我喜欢《尚书》的原因是，如果你想理解中国文化在中国历史中的根源，那么就去读《尚书》。《尚书》是一本非常基础而根本的书。它谈到了等级制度， 谈到了对皇帝的尊敬。它同时提到皇帝只是因“天赋神权”而取得统治权力。如果百姓觉得皇帝失去了这种天赋的神权，那么他们就有权力这个皇帝。

所以我认为《尚书》是一本非常重要的书。它是中国最早的史书。它向西方揭示了中国历史从（尧舜禹到）夏、商，再到今天的连续性。除非你读《尚书》，否则我不认为你能理解今天的中国。

Wang： These two books are very popular among English readers， right？

王：这两本书在英文读者中很受欢迎对吗？

Martin： The Zhuang Zi is very popular indeed because there is the fascination with Taoism. So the Zhuang Zi sells very well.

彭马田：《庄子》确实非常受欢迎，因为道家思想（对于英文读者来说）有着很强的吸引力。所以《庄子》销量很好。

But the Shang Shu has just been out over a year. It is selling well because people are beginning to be aware of the fact that if you listen to President Xi very often， he is quoting Confucius. He is also quoting the Shang Shu. So in order to understand your president， you have to read Confucius， and you have to read the Shang Shu.

For example， I was asked to give copies of the Shang Shu to the royal family and to the British government， so they could read it to understand， if you like， where President Xi’s moral basis is coming from. My guess is the Shang Shu will grow in popularity.

《尚书》才刚刚出版一年，但是它也销量不错，因为人们开始认识到主席经常引用孔子（《论语》），他也引用《尚书》。所以要了解你们的主席，你需要读孔子，读《尚书》。

比如说，英国王室和英国政府都要求看我翻译的《尚书》，他们想要了解主席的思想和精神来源。我猜这本书将会越来越受欢迎。

Wang： Have you ever gotten some feedbacks from your English readers？

王：你从读者那里得到了哪些反馈？

Martin： Yes， I do. The publishers often got correspondence back. On the Zhuang Zi， I suppose the funny comments back. Somebody wrote in and said： “I bought this book for philosophy. It is not a philosophy. It is full of jokes and stories.” So I wrote back and said： “that is the best kind of philosophy that there is.” Most people love the translations because they are accessible. They can understand this material.

彭马田：是的。出版人常常会收到反馈。关于《庄子》有很多有意思的点评。一个读者给我写信说：“我买了这本书想要读哲学，但是它不是哲学。书里面全都是笑话和故事。”我回信道：“这就是最好的哲学。”大多数人们喜欢这些翻译是因为它们很容易接近。读者是可以读懂它们的。

Wang： What influences do these two books have on Western nations and English speakers， especially British society and British， to understand Chinese classic culture？

王：这两本书对于西方国家和英文读者，特别是英国社会和英国人了解中国传统文化产生了哪些影响？

Martin： I think the Zhuang Zi tells the British and people in the West in general， that China is fun. In the Zhuang Zi， it has wonderful descriptions of the Tao， the relationship between Tao and heaven， and earth， and humanity. It contains a very radically different understanding of our place in nature than Western philosophy.

Western philosophy basically says there is nature， and there are us. We have nothing to do with that （nature）. We observe it. We look at it. We manage it， and， I am sorry to say， we ruin it. Environmental destruction is probably the biggest thing we do.

Taoism， especially in the Zhuang Zi， says， the followers， and you， and I， and this tea， and this table， we are all one under heaven and on earth. We， human beings， have the responsibility to keep the balance of Yin and Yang， and the flow of Qi. So it is a radically different notion of reality.

So I think， on one level， the Zhuang Zi offers the West a very different set of glasses， through which to see the world and to relate to it. And also， it is funny. I think Taoism is in general， but the Zhuang Zi is particular. It is challenging， in a very accessible way， some of the assumptions of the Western philosophy and Western politics. So that has a big impact.

彭马田：我想《庄子》告诉了英国人以及西方人中国是有趣的。在《庄子》里，有非常精彩的对于“道”的描述，还有对于道和天、道和地，以及道和人类关系的阐释。它里面蕴含了与西方哲学从根本上不同的对于自然和我们生活环境的理解。

西方哲学基本上强调那是自然，这是我们人类。我们没法对自然做任何事。我们观察它，注视它，控制它，同时我很抱歉地说，我们摧毁了它。破坏环境可能是我们做的最大的一件事。

道家，尤其是在《庄子》中，说花、你、我、这杯茶和这张桌子，在天之下，在地之上，所有事物都归一。我们人类有责任保持阴阳的平衡以及气的顺畅流动。所以说这是（和西方）从根本上不同的观点。

所以我认为，在一定程度上，《庄子》为西方提供了一副迥然不同的眼镜来看世界，并和世界取得联系。同时，它还是非常有趣的。我认为道家具有普遍性，而《庄子》具有独特性。它对一些西方哲学和西方政治中的假设以令人接受的方式提出了挑战。所以说《庄子》对西方有很大的影响。

Confucius， I hope what this would do is to make people realize that Confucianism is also a profound way of understanding the world. Again， what the Shang Shu offers is a radically different perspective on history and power.

翻译孔子（《尚书》），我希望这可以让人们认识到儒家同样为认识世界提供了一条内涵丰富的路径。如前所述，《尚书》为（西方）认识中国历史和中国权力格局提供了一个全然不同的视角。

Wang： How do you combine Chinese culture and British culture together well in your translation works？

王：你是如何在你的翻译作品中将中国文化与英国文化很好地融合在一起？

Martin： Well， I hope I do. I think the great point of the books that I translated is that they are full of stories. The Shang Shu is full of speeches， but you will also get these adventures and the stories. And I think， the British love stories. We have poems， songs and stories. So there is a great infinity of the combination between Chinese culture and British culture because there is also a great scale of Chinese culture telling stories. The Zhuang Zi， the Lie Zi， or the stories of Guanyin， these are the stories about us.

彭马田：我希望我的作品很好地融合了它们。我认为我翻译的书都是充满了故事的。《尚书》中全部是演说，但是你同样可以找到其中的冒险经历和故事。同时我认为，英国人是喜爱故事的。我们拥有诗歌、歌曲和故事。我认为中英文化和谐共处有无限可能，因为大量中国文化也都在讲故事。《庄子》《列子》，以及观音的传说，这些都是关于我们人类的故事。

So I think British culture and Chinese culture love the stories， and that is why I think in the long period， we have been in touch as cultures， which goes back to the 1278 when a Christian monk from Beijing travelled all the way to meet England， and celebrated communion for him. So， the first recorded meeting we have of someone from China meeting the English King is in the 1278. Ever since then， we have loved the both cultures’ love to telling stories.

英国文化和中国文化均热爱故事，同时这也是为什么两种文化在相当长的时间里都保持联系。这种联系可以追溯到1278年，一名基督教徒从北京一直游历到英国。（在英国我们）为他举行了宗教仪式。所以，关于中国人受到英国国王接见的第一份记载来自1278年。从那以后，我们两国对彼此文化都喜欢讲故事这件事非常高兴。

Wang： Can I say the stories are the bridge for Chinese culture and British culture getting together？

王：我可以说故事是将中英文化连接起来的桥梁纽带吗？

Martin： I think it is， and that is very important for our politicians to know because politicians feel sometimes that the stories are not that important as facts and figures. I have to say President Xi is very good at telling stories. He tells a story， or uses an image， or uses a painting or reference. What he does is telling a story and he will draw out a philosophy. He does not tell the philosophy alone.

彭马田：我想是的，同时对于政治家而言，他们必须知道这一点。政治家们有时会认为故事不像事实和数字那样重要。我必须要说非常擅长讲故事。他喜欢讲故事或者用一个形象，一幅图或者一个参照。当他讲故事的时候，他会从故事里抽取出哲理，而不是单单讲哲学道理。

Wang： Let’s move from the Chinese traditional culture to the modern world. You know that this year is the Chinese-British Culture Exchange Year， and our President Xi Jinping will visit Britain in October. How do you estimate the current communication and exchange condition between Chinese culture and British culture？

王：让我们从中国传统文化回到当代世界。今年是中英文化交流年，中国国家主席将于10月对英国进行国事访问。你如何评价当前中英文化间的交流现状？

Martin： I think most of the communication is very superficial. I think we have become obsessed in the West with the economic explosion of China. It is an extraordinary period of growth. We have ignored the fact that China brings with it a whole cultural sophistication. I find the most people still think of China as being sort of at the end of Cultural Revolution. As though there is no personal freedom， and as though everything is controlled. Not really.

彭马田：我认为现在两国间的文化交流大多数还停留在表面。西方社会只关注中国经济爆炸式的增长，这是一段超乎寻常的增长时期。我们已经忽略了中国文化的深邃。我发现很多英国人认为中国在某种程度上还处在刚刚结束的时期。在中国好像没有自由，所有的事情都是被控制的。然而事实并非如此。

But I think one of the things I would suggest China is that you need to emphasize more on history and culture. Now President Xi does. I do not know whether his advisors understand this， but when he talks about history and culture， we are kind of going： “wow！” Because we want to understand. So， the more you could provide us， with exhibitions， with stories， the more you can encourage people not just to come here and make money， but to come here and really understand the culture.

但是有一件事我想要建议中国，那就是中国应该花更多的注意力在（传播它的）历史和文化上。现在主席就做得很好。我不知道他的智囊团知不知道，但是当他提到中国历史和文化时，我们的反应是：“wow！”因为我们想要了解中国（历史和文化）。所以，你们提供给我们越多展览和故事，我们就越不会认为中国人来到英国只是为了赚钱，而是真正了解这样的文化。

Wang： Thank you very much！ I hope our two nations’ relationship could be better and better.

王：非常感谢你！我希望我们两国的关系可以变得越来越好！