美国总统候选人布什与克里第一场电视辩论

TheFirstBush-KerryPresidentialDebate

30September20__,UniversityofMiami,CoralGables,FL

美国东部时间9月30日晚9时（北京时间10月1日上午9时），争取连任的美国总统布什和总统候选人克里在佛罗里达州的迈阿密大学展开首场辩论，主题是外交政策和国土安全。

PRESIDENTIALCANDIDATES’DEBATE,OOREDBYTHEMICCOSUKEETRIBEOFINDIAOFFLORIDA,UNIVERSITYOFMIAMI,CORALGABLES,FLORIDA

EAKERS:GEORGEW.BUSH,PRESIDENTOFTHEUNITEDSTATES

U.S.SENATORJOHNF.KERRY(MA),DEMOCRATICPRESIDENTIALNOMINEE

JIMLEHRER,ANCHORANDEXECUTIVEEDITOR,’S"THENEWSHOUR"

LEHRER:GoodeveningfromtheUniversityofMiamiConvocationCenterinCoralGables,Florida.I’mJimLehrerof"TheNewsHour"on.

AndIwelcomeyoutothefirstofthe20__presidentialdebatesbetweenPresidentGeorgeW.Bush,theRepublicannominee,andSenatorJohnKerry,theDemocraticnominee.

ThesedebatesareooredbytheCommiiononPresidentialDebates.

Tonight’swilllast90minutes,followingdetailedrulesofengagementworkedoutbyrepresentativesofthecandidates.Ihaveagreedtoenforcetheirrulesonthem.

Theumbrellatopicisforeignpolicyandhomelandsecurity,buttheecificsubjectswerechosenbyme,thequestiowerecomposedbyme,thecandidateshavenotbeentoldwhattheyare,norhasanyoneelse.

Foreachquestiontherecanonlybeatwo-minutereoe,a90-secondrebuttaland,atmydiscretion,adiscuionexteionofoneminute.

Agreenlightwillcomeonwhen30secondsremaininanygivenawer,yellowat15,redatfiveseconds,andthenflashingredmeatime’sup.Thereisalsoabackupbuzzersystemifneeded.

Candidatesmaynotdirectaquestiontoeachother.Therewillbetwo-minuteclosingstatements,butnoopeningstatements.

Thereisanaudiencehereinthehall,buttheywillremainaolutelysilentforthenext90minutes,exceptfornow,whentheyjoinmeinwelcomingPresidentBushandSenatorKerry.

(ALAUSE)

LEHRER:Goodevening,Mr.President,SenatorKerry.

Asdeterminedbyacointo,thefirstquestiongoestoyou,SenatorKerry.Youhavetwominutes.

DoyoubelieveyoucoulddoabetterjobthanPresidentBushinpreventinganother9/11-typeterroristattackontheUnitedStates?

KERRY:Yes,Ido.

ButbeforeIawerfurther,letmethankyouformoderating(主持/会议讨论,节目等)).IwanttothanktheUniversityofMiamiforhostingus.AndIknowthepresidentwilljoinmeinwelcomingallofFloridatothisdebate.You’vebeenthroughtheroughestweeksanybodycouldimagine.Ourheartsgoouttoyou.Andweadmireyourpluckandperseverance.

IcanmakeAmericansaferthanPresidentBushhasmadeus.

AndIbelievePresidentBushandIbothloveourcountryequally.ButwejusthaveadifferentsetofconvictioabouthowyoumakeAmericasafe.

IbelieveAmericaissafestandstrongestwhenweareleadingtheworldandweareleadingstrongalliances.

I’llnevergiveavetotoanycountryoveroursecurity.ButIalsoknowhowtoleadthosealliances.

Thispresidenthaslefttheminshattersacrotheglobe,andwe’renow90percentofthecasualtiesinIraqand90percentofthecosts.

Ithinkthat’swrong,andIthinkwecandobetter.

Ihaveabetterplanforhomelandsecurity.Ihaveabetterplantobeabletofightthewaronterrorbystrengtheningourmilitary,strengtheningourintelligence,bygoingafterthefinancingmoreauthoritatively,bydoingwhatweneedtodotorebuildthealliances,byreachingouttotheMuslimworld,whichthepresidenthasalmostnotdone,andbegiingtoisolatetheradicalIslamicMuslims,nothavethemisolatetheUnitedStatesofAmerica.

IknowIcandoabetterjobinIraq.Ihaveaplantohaveasummitwithalloftheallies,somethingthispre

sidenthasnotyetachieved,notyetbeenabletodotobringpeopletothetable.

WecandoabetterjoboftrainingtheIraqiforcestodefendthemselves,andIknowthatwecandoabetterjobofpreparingforelectio.

Allofthese,andeeciallyhomelandsecurity,whichwe’lltalkaboutalittlebitlater.

LEHRER:Mr.President,youhavea90-secondrebuttal.

BUSH:I,too,thanktheUniversityofMiami,andsayourprayersarewiththegoodpeopleofthisstate,who’vesufferedalot.

Septemberthe11thchangedhowAmericamustlookattheworld.Andsincethatday,ournationhasbeenonamulti-prongedstrategytokeepourcountrysafer.

WepursuedAlQaidawhereverAlQaidatriestohide.Seventy-fivepercentofknownAlQaidaleadershavebeenbroughttojustice.Therestofthemknowwe’reafterthem.

We’veupheldthedoctrinethatsaidifyouharboraterrorist,you’reequallyasguiltyastheterrorist.

AndtheTalibanarenolongerinpower.TenmillionpeoplehaveregisteredtovoteinAfghanistanintheupcomingpresidentialelection.

InIraq,wesawathreat,andwerealizedthatafterSeptemberthe11th,wemusttakethreatsseriously,beforetheyfullymaterialize.SaddamHueinnowsitsinaprisoncell.Americaandtheworldaresaferforit.Wecontinuetopursueourpolicyofdisruptingthosewhoproliferateweapoofmadestruction.

Libyahasdisarmed.TheA.Q.Khannetworkhasbeenbroughttojustice.

And,aswell,we’repursuingastrategyoffreedomaroundtheworld,becauseIunderstandfreenatiowillrejectterror.Freenatiowillawerthehopesandairatiooftheirpeople.Freenatiowillhelpusachievethepeaceweallwant.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President,twominutes.

DoyoubelievetheelectionofSenatorKerryonNovemberthe2ndwouldincreasethechancesoftheU.S.beinghitbyanother9/11-typeterroristattack?

BUSH:No,Idon’tbelieveit’sgoingtohaen.IbelieveI’mgoingtowin,becausetheAmericanpeopleknowIknowhowtolead.I’veshowntheAmericanpeopleIknowhowtolead.

Ihave--Iunderstandeverybodyinthiscountrydoe’tagreewiththedecisioI’vemade.AndImadesometoughdecisio.ButpeopleknowwhereIstand.

PeopleouttherelisteningknowwhatIbelieve.Andthat’showbestitistokeepthepeace.

Thisnationofourshasgotasolemndutytodefeatthisideologyofhate.Andthat’swhattheyare.Thisisagroupofkillerswhowillnotonlykillhere,butkillchildreninRuia,that’llattackunmercifullyinIraq,hopingtoshakeourwill.

Wehaveadutytodefeatthisenemy.Wehaveadutytoprotectourchildrenandgrandchildren.

Thebestwaytodefeatthemistoneverwaver,tobestrong,touseeveryaetatourdiosal,istocotantlystayontheoffeiveand,atthesametime,readliberty.

Andthat’swhatpeopleareseeingnowishaeninginAfghanistan.

Tenmillioncitizehaveregisteredtovote.It’saphenomenalstatistic.They’regivenachancetobefree,andtheywillshowupatthepolls.Forty-onepercentofthose10millionarewomen.

InIraq,nodoubtaboutit,it’stough.It’shardwork.It’sincrediblyhard.Youknowwhy?Becauseanenemyrealizesthestakes.TheenemyunderstandsafreeIraqwillbeamajordefeatintheirideologyofhatred.That’swhythey’refightingsovociferously.

TheyshowedupinAfghanistanwhentheywerethere,becausetheytriedtobeatusandtheydidn’t.Andthey’reshowingupinIraqforthesamereason.They’retryingtodefeatus.

Andifweloseourwill,welose.Butifweremainstrongandresolute,wewilldefeatthisenemy.

LEHRER:Ninetysecondreoe,SenatorKerry.

KERRY:Ibelieveinbeingstrongandresoluteanddetermined.AndIwillhuntdownandkilltheterrorists,wherevertheyare.

Butwealsohavetobesmart,Jim.AndsmartmeanotdivertingyourattentionfromtherealwaronterrorinAfghanistanagaitOsamabinLadenandtakingifof ftoIraqwherethe9/11Commiionconfirmstherewasnocoectionto9/11itselfandSaddamHuein,andwherethereasonforgoingtowarwasweapoofmadestruction,nottheremovalofSaddamHuein.

Thispresidenthasmade,Iregrettosay,acoloalerrorofjudgment.AndjudgmentiswhatwelookforinthepresidentoftheUnitedStatesofAmerica.

I’mproudthatimportantmilitaryfigureswhoaresuortingmeinthisrace:formerChairmanoftheJointChiefsofStaffJohnShalikashvili;justyesterday,GeneralEisenhower’sson,GeneralJohnEisenhower,endorsedme;GeneralAdmiralWilliamCrowGeneralTonyMcBeak,whorantheAirForcewarsoeffectivelyforhisfather--allbelieveIwouldmakeastrongercommanderinchief.AndtheybelieveitbecausetheyknowIwouldnottakemyeyeoffofthegoal:OsamabinLaden.

Unfortunately,heescapedinthemountaiofToraBora.Wehadhimsurrounded.Butwedidn’tuseAmericanforces,thebesttrainedintheworld,togokillhim.ThepresidentreliedonAfghanwarlordsandheoutsourcedthatjobtoo.That’swrong.

LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes,SenatorKerry.

"Coloalmisjudgments."Whatcoloalmisjudgments,inyouropinion,hasPresidentBushmadeintheseareas?

KERRY:Well,wheredoyouwantmetobegin?

Firstofall,hemadethemisjudgmentofsayingtoAmericathathewasgoingtobuildatruealliance,thathewouldexhausttheremediesoftheUnitedNatioandgothroughtheiectio.

Infact,hefirstdidn’tevenwanttodothat.Anditwa’tuntilformerSecretaryofStateJimBakerandGeneralScowcroftandotherspushedpubliclyandsaidyou’vegottogototheU.N.,thatthepresidentfinallychangedhismind--hiscampaignhasawordforthat--andwenttotheUnitedNatio.

Now,oncethere,wecouldhavecontinuedthoseiectio.

WehadSaddamHueintraed.

HealsopromisedAmericathathewouldgotowarasalastresort.

Thosewordsmeansomethingtome,assomebodywhohasbeenincombat."Lastresort."You’vegottobeabletolookintheeyesoffamiliesandsaytothoseparents,"Itriedtodoeverythinginmypowertopreventtheloofyoursonanddaughter."

Idon’tbelievetheUnitedStatesdidthat.

Andwepushedouralliesaside.

Andso,today,weare90percentofthecasualtiesand90percentofthecost:$200billion--$200billionthatcouldhavebeenusedforhealthcare,forschools,forcotruction,forprescriptiondrugsforseniors,andit’sinIraq.

AndIraqisnoteventhecenterofthefocusofthewaronterror.ThecenterisAfghanistan,where,incidentally,thereweremoreAmericakilledlastyearthantheyearbefore;wheretheopiumproductionis75percentoftheworld’sopiumproductiowhere40to60percentoftheeconomyofAfghanistanisbasedonopium;wheretheelectiohavebeenpostponedthreetimes.

Thepresidentmovedthetroo,sohe’sgot10timesthenumberoftrooinIraqthanhehasinAfghanistan,whereOsamabinLadenis.DoesthatmeanthatSaddamHueinwas10timesmoreimportantthanOsamabinLaden--than,excuseme,SaddamHueinmoreimportantthanOsamabinLaden?Idon’tthinkso.

LEHRER:Ninety-secondreoe,Mr.President.

BUSH:MyoonentlookedatthesameintelligenceIlookedatanddeclaredin20__thatSaddamHueinwasagravethreat.

HealsosaidinDecemberof20__thatanyonewhodoubtsthattheworldissaferwithoutSaddamHueindoesnothavethejudgmenttobepresident.

Iagreewithhim.TheworldisbetteroffwithoutSaddamHuein.

Iwashopingdiplomacywouldwork.Iunderstandtheseriouscoequencesofcommittingourtroointoharm’sway.

It’sthehardestdecisionapresidentmakes.SoIwenttotheUnitedNatio.Ididn’tneedanybodytotellmetogototheUnitedNatio.Idecidedtogotheremyself.

AndIwenttherehopingthat,onceandforall,thefreeworldwouldactinconcerttogetSaddamHueintolistentoourdemands.Theypaedtheresolutionthatsaid,"Disclose,disarm,orfaceseriouscoequ ences."Ibelieve,whenaninternationalbodyeaks,itmustmeanwhatitsays.

SaddamHueinhadnointentionofdisarming.Whyshouldhe?Hehad16otherresolutioandnothingtookplace.Asamatteroffact,myoonenttalksaboutiectors.Thefactsarethathewassystematicallydeceivingtheiectors.

Thatwa’tgoingtowork.That’skindofapre-September10thmentality,thehopethatsomehowresolutioandfailediectiowouldmakethisworldamorepeacefulplace.Hewashopingwe’dturnaway.Buttherewasfortunatelyothersbesidehimselfwhobelievedthatweoughttotakeaction.

Wedid.TheworldissaferwithoutSaddamHuein.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.

WhataboutSenatorKerry’spoint,thecomparisonhedrewbetweentheprioritiesofgoingafterOsamabinLadenandgoingafterSaddamHuein?

BUSH:Jim,we’vegotthecapabilityofdoingboth.

Asamatteroffact,thisisaglobaleffort.

We’refacingagroupoffolkswhohavesuchhatredintheirheart,they’llstrikeanywhere,withanymea.

Andthat’swhyit’seentialthatwehavestrongalliances,andwedo.

That’swhyit’seentialthatwemakesurethatwekeepweapoofmadestructionoutofthehandsofpeoplelikeAlQaida,whichweare.

Buttosaythatthere’sonlyonefocusonthewaronterrordoe’treallyunderstandthenatureofthewaronterror.

Ofcoursewe’reafterSaddamHuein--ImeanbinLaden.He’sisolated.Seventy-fivepercentofhispeoplehavebeenbroughttojustice.Thekiller--themastermindoftheSeptember11thattacks,KhalidSheikMohammed,isinprison.

We’remakingprogre.

Butthefrontonthiswarismorethanjustoneplace.ThePhiliines--we’vegothelp--we’rehelpingthemtheretobring--tobringAlQaidaaffiliatestojusticethere.

And,ofcourse,Iraqisacentralpartinthewaronterror.That’swhyZarqawiandhispeoplearetryingtofightus.Theirhopeisthatwegrowwearyandweleave.

ThebiggestdisasterthatcouldhaenisthatwenotsucceedinIraq.Wewillsucceed.We’vegotaplantodoso.Andthemainreasonwe’llsucceedisbecausetheIraqiswanttobefree.

IhadthehonorofvisitingwithPrimeMinisterAllawi.He’sastrong,courageousleader.HebelievesinthefreedomoftheIraqipeople.

Hedoe’twantU.S.leadership,however,tosendmixedsignals,tonotstandwiththeIraqipeople.

Hebelieves,likeIbelieve,thattheIraqisarereadytofightfortheirownfreedom.Theyjustneedthehelptobetrained.TherewillbeelectioinJanuary.We’reendingrecotructionmoney.Andourallianceisstrong.

That’stheplanforvictory.

AndwhenIraqiffree,Americawillbemoresecure.

LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.

KERRY:ThepresidentjusttalkedaboutIraqasacenterofthewaronterror.Iraqwasnotevenclosetothecenterofthewaronterrorbeforethepresidentinvadedit.

ThepresidentmadethejudgmenttodivertforcesfromunderGeneralTommyFranksfromAfghanistanbeforetheCongreevenarovedittobegintopreparetogotowarinIraq.

AndherushedthewarinIraqwithoutaplantowinthepeace.Now,thatisnotthejudgmentthatapresidentoftheUnitedStatesoughttomake.Youdon’ttakeAmericatowarunlehavetheplantowinthepeace.Youdon’tsendtrootowarwithoutthebodyarmorthattheyneed.

I’vemetkidsinOhio,parentsinWiscoinplaces,Iowa,wherethey’regoingoutontheInternettogetthestate-of-the-artbodygeartosendtotheirkids.Someofthemgotthemforabirthdaypresent.

Ithinkthat’swrong.Humvees--10,000outof12,000Humveesthatareovertherearen’tarmored.Andyougovisitsomeofthosekidsinthehoitalstodaywhoweremaimedbecausetheydon’thavethearmament.

Thispresidentjust--Idon’tknowifheseeswhat’sreallyhaenedonthere.Butit’sgettingworsebytheday.Moresoldie rskilledinJunethanbefore.MoreinJulythanJune.MoreinAugustthanJuly.MoreinSeptemberthaninAugust.

Andnowweseebeheadings.Andwegotweapoofmadestructioncroingthebordereverysingleday,andthey’reblowingpeopleup.Andwedon’thaveenoughtroothere.

BUSH:CanIreondtothat?

LEHRER:Let’sdooneoftheseone-minuteexteio.Youhave30seconds.

BUSH:Thankyou,sir.Firstofall,whatmyoonentwantsyoutoforgetisthathevotedtoauthorizetheuseofforceandnowsaysit’sthewrongwaratthewrongtimeatthewrongplace.

Idon’tseehowyoucanleadthiscountrytosucceedinIraqifyousaywrongwar,wrongtime,wrongplace.Whatmeagedoesthatsendourtroo?Whatmeagedoesthatsendtoourallies?WhatmeagedoesthatsendtheIraqis?

No,thewaytowinthisistobesteadfastandresolvedandtofollowthroughontheplanthatI’vejustoutlined.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Senator.

KERRY:Yes,wehavetobesteadfastandresolved,andIam.AndIwillsucceedforthosetroo,nowthatwe’rethere.Wehavetosucceed.Wecan’tleaveafailedIraq.Butthatdoe’tmeanitwa’tamistakeofjudgmenttogothereandtakethefocusoffofOsamabinLaden.Itwas.Now,wecansucceed.ButIdon’tbelievethispresidentcan.Ithinkweneedapresidentwhohasthecredibilitytobringthealliesbacktothetableandtodowhat’snecearytomakeitsoAmericai’tdoingthisalone.

LEHRER:We’llcomebacktoIraqinamoment.ButIwanttocomebacktowhereIbegan,onhomelandsecurity.Thisisatwo-minutenewquestion,SenatorKerry.

Aspresident,whatwouldyoudo,ecifically,inadditiontoordifferentlytoincreasethehomelandsecurityoftheUnitedStatesthanwhatPresidentBushisdoing?

KERRY:Jim,letmetellyouexactlywhatI’lldo.Andtherearealonglistofthing.Firstofall,whatkindofmixedmeagedoesitsendwhenyouhave$500milliongoingovertoIraqtoputpoliceofficersinthestreetsofIraq,andthepresidentiscuttingtheCOprograminAmerica?

WhatkindofmeagedoesitsendtobesendingmoneytoopenfirehousesinIraq,butwe’reshuttingfirehouseswhoarethefirst-reondershereinAmerica.

Thepresidentha’tputonenickel,notonenickelintotheefforttofixsomeofourtuelsandbridgesandmostexposedsubwaysystems.That’swhytheyhadtoclosedownthesubwayinNewYorkwhentheRepublicanConventionwasthere.Wehadn’tdonetheworkthatoughttobedone.

Thepresident--95percentofthecontainersthatcomeintotheports,righthereinFlorida,arenotiected.Civiliagetontoaircraft,andtheirluggageisX-rayed,butthecargoholdisnotX-rayed.

DoesthatmakeyoufeelsaferinAmerica?

ThispresidentthoughtitwasmoreimportanttogivethewealthiestpeopleinAmericaataxcutratherthaninvestinhomelandsecurity.Thosearen’tmyvalues.IbelieveinprotectingAmericafirst.

AndlongbeforePresidentBushandIgetataxcut--andthat’swhogetsit--longbeforewedo,I’mgoingtoinvestinhomelandsecurityandI’mgoingtomakesurewe’renotcuttingCOprogramsinAmericaandwe’refullystaffedinourfirehousesandthatweprotectthenuclearandchemicalplants.

Thepresidentalsounfortunatelygaveintothechemicalindustry,whichdidn’twanttodosomeofthethingsnecearytostrengthenourchemicalplantexposure.

Andthere’sanenormousundonejobtoprotecttheloosenuclearmaterialsintheworldthatareabletogettoterrorists.That’sawholeothersubject,butIseewestillhavealittlebitmoretime.

Letmejustquicklysay,atthecurrentpace,thepresidentwillnotsecuretheloosematerialintheSovietUnion--formerSovietUnionfor13years.I’mgoingtodoitinfouryears.Andwe’regoingtokeepitoutofthehandsofterrorists.

LEHRER:Ninety-secondreoe,Mr.President.

BUSH:Idon’tthinkwewanttogettohowhe’sgoingtopayforallthesepromises.It’s likeahugetaxgap.Anyway,that’sforanotherdebate.

Myadministrationhastripledtheamountofmoneywe’reendingonhomelandsecurityto$30billionayear.

MyadministrationworkedwiththeCongretocreatetheDepartmentofHomelandSecuritysowecouldbettercoordinateourbordersandports.We’vegot1,000extraborderpatrolonthesouthernborder;want1,000onthenorthernborder.We’remodernizingourborders.

Weent$3.1billionforfireandpolice,$3.1billion.

We’redoingourdutytoprovidethefunding.

Butthebestwaytoprotectthishomelandistostayontheoffee.

Youknow,wehavetoberight100percentofthetime.Andtheenemyonlyhastoberightoncetohurtus.

There’salotofgoodpeopleworkinghard.

Andbytheway,we’vealsochangedthecultureoftheFBItohavecounterterrorismasitsnumberonepriority.We’recommunicatingbetter.We’regoingtoreformourintelligenceservicestomakesurethatwegetthebestintelligencepoible.

ThePatriotActisvital--isvitalthattheCongrerenewthePatriotActwhichenablesourlawenforcementtodisruptterrorcells.

Butagain,Irepeattomyfellowcitize,thebestwaytoprotectionistostayontheoffee.

LEHRER:Yes,let’sdoalittle--yes,30seconds.

KERRY:ThepresidentjustsaidtheFBIhadchangeditsculture.WejustreadonthefrontpagesofAmerica’spapersthatthereareover100,000hoursoftapes,unlistenedto.Ononeofthosetapesmaybetheenemybeingrightthenexttime.

Andthetestisnotwhetheryou’reendingmoremoney.Thetestis,areyoudoingeverythingpoibletomakeAmericasafe?

Wedidn’tneedthattaxcut.Americaneededtobesafe.

BUSH:Ofcoursewe’redoingeverythingwecantoprotectAmerica.IwakeupeverydaythinkingabouthowbesttoprotectAmerica.That’smyjob.

IworkwithDirectorMuelleroftheFBI;comesinmyofficewhenI’minWashingtoneverymorning,talkingabouthowtoprotectus.There’salotofreallygoodpeopleworkinghardtodoso.

It’shardwork.But,again,IwanttotelltheAmericanpeople,we’redoingeverythingwecanathome,butyoubetterhaveapresidentwhochasestheseterroristsdownandbringthemtojusticebeforetheyhurtusagain.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.

WhatcriteriawouldyouusetodeterminewhentostartbringingU.S.troohomefromIraq?

BUSH:LetmefirsttellyouthatthebestwayforIraqtobesafeandsecureisforIraqicitizetobetrainedtodothejob.

Andthat’swhatwe’redoing.We’vegot100,000trainednow,125,000bytheendofthisyear,200,000bytheendofnextyear.Thatisthebestway.We’llneversucceedinIraqiftheIraqicitizedonotwanttotakemattersintotheirownhandstoprotectthemselves.Ibelievetheywantto.PrimeMinisterAllawibelievestheywantto.

Andsothebestindicationaboutwhenwecanbringourtroohome--whichIreallywanttodo,butIdon’twanttodosoforthesakeofbringingthemhome;Iwanttodosobecausewe’veachievedanobjective--istoseetheIraqisperformandtoseetheIraqisstepupandtakereoibility.

Andso,theawertoyourquestionis:WhenourgeneralisonthegroundandAmbaadorNegropontetellsmethatIraqisreadytodefendherselffromtheseterrorists,thatelectiowillhavebeenheldbythen,thattheirstabilityandthatthey’reontheirwayto,youknow,anationthat’sfree;that’swhen.

AndIhopeit’sassoonaspoible.ButIknowputtingartificialdeadlineswon’twork.Myoonentatonetimesaid,"Well,getmeelected,I’llhavethemoutofthereinsixmonths."Youcan’tdothatandexpecttowinthewaronterror.Mymeagetoourtroois,"Thankyouforwhatyou’redoing.We’restandingwithyoustrong.We’llgiveyoualltheequipmentyouneed.Andwe’llgetyouhomeassoonasthemiion’sdone,becausethisisavitalmiion.&q uot;

AfreeIraqwillbeanallyinthewaronterror,andthat’seential.AfreeIraqwillsetapowerfulexampleinthepartoftheworldthatisdeerateforfreedom.AfreeIraqwillhelpsecureIsrael.AfreeIraqwillenforcethehopesandairatioofthereformersinplaceslikeIran.AfreeIraqiseentialforthesecurityofthiscountry.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.

KERRY:Thankyou,Jim.

Mymeagetothetrooisalso:Thankyouforwhatthey’redoing,butit’salsohelpisontheway.Ibelievethosetroodeservebetterthanwhattheyaregettingtoday.

Youknow,it’sinteresting.WhenIwasinaropelinejusttheotherday,comingoutherefromWiscoin,acoupleofyoungreturneeswereintheline,oneactiveduty,onefromtheGuard.Andtheybothlookedatmeandsaid:Weneedyou.You’vegottohelpusoverthere.

NowIbelievethere’sabetterwaytodothis.Youknow,thepresident’sfatherdidnotgointoIraq,intoBaghdad,beyondBasra.Andthereasonhedidn’tis,hesaid--hewroteinhisbook--becausetherewasnoviableexitstrategy.Andhesaidourtroowouldbeoccupiersinabitterlyhostileland.

That’sexactlywherewefindourselvestoday.There’saseeofAmericanoccupation.TheonlybuildingthatwasguardedwhenthetroowhenintoBaghdadwastheoilministry.Wedidn’tguardthenuclearfacilities.

Wedidn’tguardtheforeignoffice,whereyoumighthavefoundinformationaboutweapoofmadestruction.Wedidn’tguardtheborders.

Almosteverystepoftheway,ourtroohavebeenleftontheseextraordinarilydifficultmiio.Iknowwhatit’sliketogooutononeofthosemiiowhenyoudon’tknowwhat’saroundthecorner.

AndIbelieveourtrooneedotherallieshelping.I’mgoingtoholdthatsummit.Iwillbringfreshcredibility,anewstart,andwewillgetthejobdoneright.

LEHRER:Allright,goahead.Yes,sir?

BUSH:Ithinkit’sworthyforafollow-up.

LEHRER:Sure,right.

(CROTALK)LEHRER:Wecando30secondseachhere.Allright.

BUSH:Myoonentsayshelpisontheway,butwhatkindofmeagedoesitsaytoourtrooinharm’sway,"wrongwar,wrongplace,wrongtime"?Notameageacommanderinchiefgives,orthisisa"greatdiversion."

Aswell,helpisontheway,butit’scertainlyhardtotellitwhenhevotedagaitthe$87-billionsulementaltoprovideequipmentforourtroo,andthensaidheactuallydidvoteforitbeforehevotedagaitit.

Notwhatacommanderinchiefdoeswhenyou’retryingtoleadtroo.

LEHRER:SenatorKerry,30seconds.

KERRY:Well,youknow,whenItalkedaboutthe$87billion,ImadeamistakeinhowItalkaboutthewar.ButthepresidentmadeamistakeininvadingIraq.Whichisworse?

Ibelievethatwhenyouknowsomething’sgoingwrong,youmakeitright.That’swhatIlearnedinVietnam.WhenIcamebackfromthatwarIsawthatitwaswrong.Somepeopledon’tlikethefactthatIstooduptosayno,butIdid.Andthat’swhatIdidwiththatvote.AndI’mgoingtoleadthosetrootovictory.

LEHRER:Allright,newquestion.Twominutes,SenatorKerry.

eakingofVietnam,youoketoCongrein1971,afteryoucamebackfromVietnam,andyousaid,quote,"Howdoyouaskamantobethelastmantodieforamistake?"

AreAmericanowdyinginIraqforamistake?

KERRY:No,andtheydon’thaveto,providingwehavetheleadershipthatweput--thatI’moffering.

Ibelievethatwehavetowinthis.ThepresidentandIhavealwaysagreedonthat.Andfromthebegiing,Ididvotetogivetheauthority,becauseIthoughtSaddamHueinwasathreat,andIdidacceptthatintelligence.

ButIalsolaidoutaverystrictseriesofthingsweneededtodoinordertoproceedfromapositionofstrength.Thenthepresident,infact,promisedthem.HewenttoCinciatiandhegaveaeechinwhichhesaid,"Wewillplancarefully.Wewillproceedcautiously.Wewillnotmakewarinevitable.We willgowithourallies."

Hedidn’tdoanyofthosethings.Theydidn’tdotheplaing.TheylefttheplaingoftheStateDepartmentintheStateDepartmentdesks.Theyavoidedeventheadviceoftheirowngeneral.GeneralShiheki,theArmychiefofstaff,saidyou’regoingtoneedseveralhundredthousandtroo.Iteadoflisteningtohim,theyretiredhim.Theterrorismczar,whohasworkedforeverypresidentsinceRonaldReagan,said,"InvadingIraqinreoeto9/11wouldbelikeFranklinRooseveltinvadingMexicoinreoetoPearlHarbor."That’swhatwehavehere.

Andwhatweneednowisapresidentwhounderstandshowtobringtheseothercountriestogethertorecognizetheirstakesinthis.Theydohavestakesinit.They’vealwayshadstakesinit.

TheArabcountrieshaveastakeinnothavingacivilwar.TheEuropeancountrieshaveastakeinnothavingtotaldisorderontheirdoorstep.

Butthispresidentha’tevenheldthekindofstatesman-likesummitsthatpullpeopletogetherandgetthemtoinvestinthosestates.Infact,he’sdonetheoosite.Hepushedthemaway.

WhentheSecretaryGeneralKofiAanofferedtheUnitedNatio,hesaid,"No,no,we’llgodothisalone."

TosaveforHalliburtontheoilsofthewar,theyactuallyiuedamemorandumfromtheDefeeDepartmentsaying,"Ifyouweren’twithusinthewar,don’tbotheralyingforanycotruction."

That’snotawaytoinvitepeople.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.

BUSH:That’stotallyaurd.Ofcourse,theU.N.wasinvitedin.AndwesuorttheU.N.effortsthere.TheypulledoutafterSergiodeMellogotkilled.Butthey’renowbackinhelpingwithelectio.

Myoonentsayswedidn’thaveanyalliesinthiswar.What’shesaytoTonyBlair?What’shesaytoAlexanderKwaiewskiofPoland?Youcan’texpecttobuildanalliancewhenyoudenigratethecontributioofthosewhoareservingsidebysidewithAmericantrooinIraq.

Plus,hesaysthecornerstoneofhisplantosucceedinIraqistocalluponnatiotoserve.Sowhat’sthemeagegoingtobe:"PleasejoinusinIraq.We’reagranddiversion.Joinusforawarthatisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime?"

Iknowhowthesepeoplethink.Idealwiththemallthetime.Isitdownwiththeworldleadersfrequentlyandtalktothemonthephonefrequently.They’renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosays,"Thisisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime."

Iknowhowthesepeoplethink.Idealwiththemallthetime.Isitdownwiththeworldleadersfrequentlyandtalktothemonthephonefrequently.

They’renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosaysthisisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime.They’renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosecoreconvictiokeepchangingbecauseofpoliticsinAmerica.

Andfinally,hesaysweoughttohaveasummit.Well,therearesummitsbeingheld.Japanisgoingtohaveasummitforthedonor$14billionpledged.AndPrimeMinisterKoizumiisgoingtocallcountriestoaccount,togetthemtocontribute.

Andthere’sgoingtobeanArabsummit,oftheneighborhoodcountries.AndColinPowellhelpedsetupthatsummit.

LEHRER:Fortyseconds,Senator.

KERRY:TheUnitedNatio,KofiAanofferedhelpafterBaghdadfell.Andweneverpickedhimuponthatanddidwhatwasnecearytotraferauthorityandtotraferrecotruction.ItwasalwaysAmerican-run.

Secondly,whenwewentin,therewerethreecountries:GreatBritain,AustraliaandtheUnitedStates.That’snotagrandcoalition.Wecandobetter.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.

BUSH:Well,actually,heforgotPoland.Andnowthere’s30natioinvolved,standingsidebysidewithourAmericantroo.

AndIhonortheirsacrifices.AndIdon’tareciateitwhencandidateforpresidentdenigratesthecontributioofthesebravesoldiers.

Youcaotleadtheworldifyoudonothonorthecontributioofthosewhoarewithu s.Hecalledthemcoercedandthebribed.That’snothowyoubringpeopletogether.

Ourcoalitionisstrong.Itwillremainstrong,solongasI’mthepresident.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President,twominutes.Youhavesaidtherewasa,quote,"miscalculation,"ofwhattheconditiowouldbeinpost-warIraq.Whatwasthemiscalculation,andhowdidithaen?

BUSH:No,whatIsaidwasthat,becauseweachievedsucharapidvictory,moreoftheSaddamloyalistswerearound.Imean,wethoughtwe’dwhipmoreofthemgoingin.

ButbecauseTommyFranksdidsuchagreatjobinplaingtheoperation,wemovedrapidly,andalotoftheBaathistsandSaddamloyalistslaiddowntheirarmsanddisaeared.Ithoughttheywouldstayandfight,buttheydidn’t.

Andnowwe’refightingthemnow.Andit’shardwork.Iunderstandhowharditis.Igetthecasualtyreportseveryday.IseeontheTVscreehowharditis.Butit’snecearywork.

AndI’moptimistic.See,Ithinkyoucanberealisticandoptimisticatthesametime.I’moptimisticwe’llachieve--Iknowwewon’tachieveifwesendmixedsignals.Iknowwe’renotgoingtoachieveourobjectiveifwesendmixedsignalstoourtroo,ourfriends,theIraqicitize.

We’vegotaplaninplace.TheplansaystherewillbeelectioinJanuary,andtherewillbe.Theplansayswe’lltrainIraqisoldierssotheycandothehardwork,andweare.

Andit’snotonlyjustAmerica,butNATOisnowhelping,Jordan’shelpingtrainpolice,UAEishelpingtrainpolice.

We’veallocated$7billionoverthenextmonthsforrecotructionefforts.Andwe’remakingprogrethere.

Andourallianceisstrong.AndasIjusttoldyou,there’sgoingtobeasummitoftheArabnatio.Japanwillbehostingasummit.We’remakingprogre.

Itishardwork.Itishardworktogofromatyraytoademocracy.It’shardworktogofromaplacewherepeoplegettheirhandscutoff,orexecuted,toaplacewherepeoplearefree.

Butit’snecearywork.AndafreeIraqisgoingtomakethisworldamorepeacefulplace.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.

KERRY:WhatIthinktroublesalotofpeopleinourcountryisthatthepresidenthasjustsortofdescribedonekindofmistake.Butwhathehassaidisthat,evenknowingtherewerenoweapoofmadestruction,evenknowingtherewasnoimminentthreat,evenknowingtherewasnocoectionwithAlQaida,hewouldstillhavedoneeverythingthesameway.Thosearehiswords.

Now,Iwouldnot.SowhatI’mtryingtodoisjusttalkthetruthtotheAmericanpeopleandtotheworld.Thetruthiswhatgoodpolicyisbasedon.It’swhatleadershipisbasedon.

ThepresidentsaysthatI’mdenigratingthesetroo.IhavenothingbutreectfortheBritish,TonyBlair,andforwhatthey’vebeenwillingtodo.

Butyoucan’ttellmethatwhenthemosttrooanyothercountryhasonthegroundisGreatBritain,with8,300,andbelowthatthefourothersarebelow4,000,andbelowthat,therei’tanybodyoutofthehundreds,thatwehaveagenuinecoalitiontogetthisjobdone.

Youcan’ttellmethatonthedaythatwewentintothatwaranditstarted--itwasprincipallytheUnitedStates,theAmericaandGreatBritainandoneortwoothers.That’sit.Andtoday,weare90percentofthecasualtiesand90percentofthecosts.Andmeanwhile,NorthKoreahasgotnuclearweapo.Talkaboutmixedmeages.Thepresidentistheonethatsaid,"Wecan’tallowcountriestogetnuclearweapo."Theyhave.I’llchangethat.

LEHRER:Newquestion.SenatorKerry,twominutes.Youjust--you’verepeatedlyaccusedPresidentBush--notheretonight,butelsewherebefore--ofnottellingthetruthaboutIraq,eentiallyoflyingtotheAmericanpeopleaboutIraq.Giveussomeexamplesofwhatyoucoidertobehisnottellingthetruth.

KERRY:Well,I’venever,everusedtheharshestword,asyoudidjustthen.AndItrynotto.I’vebeen--butI’ ;llnevertheletellyouthatIthinkhehasnotbeencandidwiththeAmericanpeople.AndI’lltellyouexactlyhow.

Firstofall,weallknowthatinhisstateoftheunionmeage,hetoldCongreaboutnuclearmaterialsthatdidn’texist.

WeknowthathepromisedAmericathathewasgoingtobuildthiscoalition.Ijustdescribedthecoalition.Itisnotthekindofcoalitionweweredescribedwhenweweretalkingaboutvotingforthis.

ThepresidentsaidhewouldexhausttheremediesoftheUnitedNatioandgothroughthatfullproce.Hedidn’t.Hecutifoff,sortofarbitrarily.

Andweknowthattherewerefurtherdiplomaticeffortsunderway.Theyjustdecidedthetimefordiplomacyisoverandrushedtowarwithoutplaingforwhathaeafterwards.

Now,hemisledtheAmericanpeopleinhiseechwhenhesaidwewillplancarefully.Theyobviouslydidn’t.HemisledtheAmericanpeoplewhenhesaidwe’dgotowarasalastresort.Wedidnotgoasalastresort.AndmostAmericaknowthedifference.

Now,thishascostusdeeplyintheworld.IbelievethatitisimportanttotellthetruthtotheAmericanpeople.I’veworkedwiththoseleadersthepresidenttalksabout,I’veworkedwiththemfor20years,forlongerthanthispresident.AndIknowwhatmanyofthemsaytoday,andIknowhowtobringthembacktothetable.

AndIbelievethatafreshstart,newcredibility,apresidentwhocanunderstandwhatwehavetodotoreachouttotheMuslimworldtomakeitclearthatthisisnot,youknow--OsamabinLadenusestheinvasionofIraqinordertogoouttopeopleandsaythatAmericahasdeclaredwaronIslam.

Weneedtobesmarteraboutnowwewageawaronterror.Weneedtodenythemtherecruits.Weneedtodenythemthesafehave.Weneedtorebuildouralliances.

IbelievethatRonaldReagan,JohnKeedy,andtheothersdidthatmoreeffectively,andI’mgoingtotrytofollowintheirfootste.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,Mr.President.

BUSH:Myoonentjustsaidsomethingamazing.HesaidOsamabinLadenusestheinvasionofIraqasanexcusetoreadhatredforAmerica.OsamabinLadeni’tgoingtodeterminehowwedefendourselves.

OsamabinLadendoe’tgettodecide.TheAmericanpeopledecide.

IdecidedtherightactionwasinIraq.Myoonentcallsitamistake.Itwa’tamistake.

HesaidImisledonIraq.Idon’tthinkhewasmisleadingwhenhecalledIraqagravethreatinthefallof20__.

Idon’tthinkhewasmisleadingwhenhesaidthatitwasrighttodisarmIraqintheringof20__.

Idon’tthinkhemisledyouwhenhesaidthat,youknow,anyonewhodoubtedwhethertheworldwasbetteroffwithoutSaddamHueininpowerdidn’thavethejudgmenttobepresident.Idon’tthinkhewasmisleading.

IthinkwhatismisleadingistosayyoucanleadandsucceedinIraqifyoukeepchangingyourpositioonthiswar.Andhehas.Asthepoliticschange,hispositiochange.Andthat’snothowacommanderinchiefacts.

Letmefinish.

TheintelligenceIlookedatwasthesameintelligencemyoonentlookedat,theverysameintelligence.AndwhenIstoodupthereandoketotheCongre,Iwaseakingoffthesameintelligencehelookedattomakehisdecisiotosuorttheauthorizationofforce.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.We’lldoa30secondhere.

KERRY:Iwa’tmisleadingwhenIsaidhewasathreat.NorwasImisleadingonthedaythatthepresidentdecidedtogotowarwhenIsaidthathehadmadeamistakeinnotbuildingstrongalliancesandthatIwouldhavepreferredthathedidmorediplomacy.

I’vehadoneposition,onecoistentposition,thatSaddamHueinwasathreat.Therewasarightwaytodisarmhimandawrongway.Andthepresidentchosethewrongway.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.

BUSH:Theonlycoistentaboutmyoonent’spositionisthathe’sbeenincoistent.Hechangespositio.Andyoucaotchangepositiointhiswaronterrorifyouexpecttowin.

AndIexpecttowin.It’snecearywewin.

We’rebeingchall engedlikeneverbefore.AndwehaveadutytoourcountryandtofuturegeneratioofAmericatoachieveafreeIraq,afreeAfghanistan,andtoridtheworldofweapoofmadestruction.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.

HasthewarinIraqbeenworththecostofAmericanlives,1,052asoftoday?

BUSH:Youknow,everylifeisprecious.Everylifematters.Youknow,myhardest--thehardestpartofthejobistoknowthatIcommittedthetrooinharm’swayandthendothebestIcantoprovidecomfortforthelovedoneswholostasonoradaughterorahuandorwife.

Youknow,IthinkaboutMiyJohon.She’safantasticladyImetinCharlotte,NorthCarolina.SheandhersonBryan,theycametoseeme.HerhuandPJgotkilled.He’dbeeninAfghanistan,wenttoIraq.

Youknow,it’shardworktotrytoloveherasbestasIcan,knowingfullwellthatthedecisionImadecausedherlovedonetobeinharm’sway.

ItoldherafterweprayedandtearedupandlaughedsomethatIthoughtherhuand’ssacrificewasnobleandworthy.BecauseIunderstandthestakesofthiswaronterror.IunderstandthatwemustfindAlQaidawherevertheyhide.

Wemustdealwiththreatsbeforetheyfullymaterialize.AndSaddamHueinwasathreat,andthatwemustreadlibertybecauseinthelongrun,thewaytodefeathatredandtyrayandoreionistoreadfreedom.

Miyunderstoodthat.That’swhatshetoldmeherhuandunderstood.Soyousay,"Wasitworthit?"Everylifeisprecious.That’swhatdistinguishesusfromtheenemy.Everybodymatters.ButIthinkit’sworthit,Jim.

Ithinkit’sworthit,becauseIthink--IknowinthelongtermafreeIraq,afreeAfghanistan,willsetsuchapowerfulinapartoftheworldthat’sdeerateforfreedom.Itwillhelpchangetheworld;thatwecanlookbackandsaywedidourduty.

LEHRER:Senator,90seconds.

KERRY:Iunderstandwhatthepresidentistalkingabout,becauseIknowwhatitmeatolosepeopleincombat.Andthequestion,isitworththecost,remindsmeofmyownthinkingwhenIcamebackfromfightinginthatwar.

Anditremindsmethatitisvitalforusnottoconfusethewar,ever,withthewarriors.Thathaenedbefore.

Andthat’soneofthereasowhyIbelieveIcangetthisjobdone,becauseIamdeterminedforthosesoldiersandforthosefamilies,forthosekidswhoputtheirlivesontheline.

Thatisnoble.That’sthemostnoblethingthatanybodycando.AndIwanttomakesuretheoutcomehonorsthatnobility.

Now,wehaveachoicehere.I’velaidoutaplanbywhichIthinkwecanbesuccefulinIraq:withasummit,bydoingbettertraining,faster,bycutting--bydoingwhatweneedtodowithreecttotheU.N.andtheelectio.

There’sonly25percentofthepeopleinthere.Theycan’thaveanelectionrightnow.

Thepresident’snotgettingthejobdone.

SothechoiceforAmericais,youcanhaveaplanthatI’velaidoutinfourpoints,andseemoreofit;oryouhavethepresident’splan,whichisfourwords:moreofthesame.

Ithinkmyplanisbetter.

Andmyplanhasabetterchanceofstandingupandfightingforthosetroo.

Iwillneverletthosetroodown,andwillhuntandkilltheterroristswherevertheyare.

LEHRER:Allright,sir,goahead.Thirtyseconds.

BUSH:Yes,Iunderstandwhatitmeatothecommanderinchief.AndifIweretoeversay,"Thisisthewrongwaratthewrongtimeatthewrongplace,"thetroowouldwonder,howcanIfollowthisguy?

Youcaotleadthewaronterrorifyoukeepchangingpositioonthewaronterrorandsaythingslike,"Well,thisisjustagranddiversion."It’snotagranddiversion.Thisisaneentialthatwegetitright.

Andso,theplanhetalksaboutsimplywon’twork.

LEHRER:SenatorKerry,youhave30seconds.Youhave30seconds,right.Andthenthepresident.

KERRY:SecretaryofStateColinPowelltoldthispresidentthePotteryBarnr ule:Ifyoubreakit,youfixit.

Now,ifyoubreakit,youmadeamistake.It’sthewrongthingtodo.Butyouownit.Andthenyou’vegottofixitanddosomethingwithit.

Nowthat’swhatwehavetodo.There’snoincoistency.Soldiersknowovertherethatthisi’tbeingdonerightyet.I’mgoingtogetitrightforthosesoldiers,becauseit’simportanttoIsrael,it’simportanttoAmerica,it’simportanttotheworld,it’simportanttothefightonterror.

ButIhaveaplantodoit.Hedoe’t.

LEHRER:eakingofyourplan,newquestion,SenatorKerry.Twominutes.

Canyougiveusecifics,intermsofascenario,timelines,etcetera,forendingmajorU.S.militaryinvolvementinIraq?

KERRY:ThetimelinethatI’vesetout--andagain,Iwanttocorrectthepresident,becausehe’smisledagainthiseveningonwhatI’vesaid.Ididn’tsayIwouldbringtroooutinsixmonths.Isaid,ifwedothethingsthatI’vesetoutandwearesucceful,wecouldbegintodrawthetroodowninsixmonths.

AndIthinkacriticalcomponentofsucceinIraqisbeingabletoconvincetheIraqisandtheArabworldthattheUnitedStatesdoe’thavelong-termdesigonit.

AsIunderstandit,we’rebuildingsome14militarybasestherenow,andsomepeoplesaythey’vegotaratherpermanentconcepttothem.

Whenyouguardtheoilministry,butyoudon’tguardthenuclearfacilities,themeagetoalotofpeopleismaybe,"Wow,maybethey’reinterestedinouroil."

Now,theproblemisthattheydidn’tthinkthesethingsthroughproperly.Andthesearethethingsyouhavetothinkthrough.

WhatIwanttodoischangethedynamicsontheground.AndyouhavetodothatbybegiingtonotbackoffoftheFallujahsandotherplaces,andsendthewrongmeagetotheterrorists.Youhavetoclosetheborders.

You’vegottoshowyou’reseriousinthatregard.Butyou’vealsogottoshowthatyouarepreparedtobringtherestoftheworldinandsharethestakes.

Iwillmakeaflatstatement:TheUnitedStatesofAmericahasnolong-termdesigonstayinginIraq.

Andourgoalinmyadministrationwouldbetogetallofthetroooutoftherewithaminimalamountyouneedfortrainingandlogisticsaswedoinsomeothercountriesintheworldafterawartobeabletosustainthepeace.

Butthat’showwe’regoingtowinthepeace,byrapidlytrainingtheIraqisthemselves.

Eventheadministrationhasadmittedtheyhaven’tdonethetraining,becausetheycamebacktoCongreafewweeksagoandaskedforacompletereprogrammingofthemoney.

Nowwhatgreateradmiionisthere,16monthsafterwards."Oo,wehaven’tdonethejob.Wehavetostarttoendthemoneynow.Willyouguysgiveuspermiiontoshiftitoverintotraining?"

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.

BUSH:Thereare100,000trootrained,police,guard,ecialunits,borderpatrol.There’sgoingtobe125,000trainedbytheendofthisyear.Yes,we’regettingthejobdone.It’shardwork.Everybodyknowsit’shardwork,becausethere’sadeterminedenemythat’stryingtodefeatus.

Now,myoonentsayshe’sgoingtotrytochangethedynamicsontheground.Well,PrimeMinisterAllawiwashere.Heistheleaderofthatcountry.He’sabrave,braveman.Whenhecame,aftergivingaeechtotheCongre,myoonentquestionedhiscredibility.

Youcan’tchangethedynamicsonthegroundifyou’vecriticizedthebraveleaderofIraq.

OneofhiscampaignpeopleallegedthatPrimeMinisterAllawiwaslikeapuet.That’snowaytotreatsomebodywho’scourageousandbrave,thatistryingtoleadhiscountryforward.

Thewaytomakesurethatwesucceedistosendcoistent,soundmeagestotheIraqipeoplethatwhenwegiveourword,wewillkeepourword,thatwestandwithyou,thatwebelieveyouwanttobefree.AndIdo.

Ibelievethat25millionpeople,thevastmajority,longt ohaveelectio.

Irejectthisnotion--andI’msuggestingmyoonenti’t--Irejectthenotionthatsomesaythatifyou’reMuslimyoucan’tfree,youdon’tdesirefreedom.Idisagree,stronglydisagreewiththat.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.

KERRY:Icouldn’tagreemorethattheIraqiswanttobefreeandthattheycouldbefree.

ButIthinkthepresident,again,stillha’tshownhowhe’sgoingtogoaboutittherightway.Hehasmoreofthesame.

Now,PrimeMinisterAllawicamehere,andhesaidtheterroristsarepouringovertheborder.That’sAllawi’saement.

ThenationalintelligenceaementthatwasgiventothepresidentinJulysaid,best-casescenario,moreofthesameofwhatweseetoday;worst-casescenario,civilwar.

Icandobetter.

BUSH:Yes,letme...

LEHRER:Yes,30seconds.

BUSH:ThereasonwhyPrimeMinisterAllawisaidthey’recomingacrotheborderisbecauseherecognizesthatthisisacentralpartofthewaronterror.They’refightingusbecausethey’refightingfreedom.

TheyunderstandthatafreeAfghanistanorafreeIraqwillbeamajordefeatforthem.Andthosearethestakes.

Andthat’swhyitiseentialwenotleave.That’swhyit’seentialweholdtheline.That’swhyit’seentialwewin.Andwewill.Undermyleadershipwe’regoingtowinthiswarinIraq.

LEHRER:Mr.President,newquestion.Twominutes.DoestheIraqexperiencemakeitmorelikelyorlelikelythatyouwouldtaketheUnitedStatesintoanotherpreemptivemilitaryaction?

BUSH:IwouldhopeIneverhaveto.Iunderstandhowharditistocommittroo.Neverwantedtocommittroo.WhenIwasruing--whenwehadthedebatein20__,neverdreamtI’dbedoingthat.

Buttheenemyattackedus,Jim,andIhaveasolemndutytoprotecttheAmericanpeople,todoeverythingIcantoprotectus.

Ithinkthatbyeakingclearlyanddoingwhatwesayandnotsendingmixedmeages,itislelikelywe’lleverhavetousetroo.

Butapresidentmustalwaysbewillingtousetroo.Itmust--asalastresort.

IwashopefuldiplomacywouldworkinIraq.Itwasfallingapart.TherewasnodoubtinmymindthatSaddamHueinwashopingthattheworldwouldturnablindeye.

Andifhehadbeeninpower,inotherwords,ifwewouldhavesaid,"Lettheiectorswork,orlet’s,youknow,hopetotalkhimout.Maybean18thresolutionwouldwork,"hewouldhavebeenstrongerandtougher,andtheworldwouldhavebeenalotworseoff.There’sjustnodoubtinmymindwewouldruetheday,hadSaddamHueinbeeninpower.

Soweusediplomacyeverychanceweget,believeme.AndIwouldhopetoneverhavetouseforce.

Butbyeakingclearlyandsendingmeagesthatwemeanwhatwesay,we’veaffectedtheworldinapositiveway.

LookatLibya.Libyawasathreat.Libyaisnowpeacefullydismantlingitsweapoprograms.

LibyaunderstoodthatAmericaandotherswillenforcedoctrineandthattheworldisbetterforit.

Sotoaweryourquestion,Iwouldhopeweneverhaveto.Ithinkbyactingfirmlyanddecisively,itwillmeanitislelikelywehavetouseforce.

LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.

KERRY:Jim,thepresidentjustsaidsomethingextraordinarilyrevealingandfranklyveryimportantinthisdebate.InawertoyourquestionaboutIraqandsendingpeopleintoIraq,hejustsaid,"Theenemyattackedus."

SaddamHueindidn’tattackus.OsamabinLadenattackedus.AlQaidaattackedus.AndwhenwehadOsamabinLadencorneredinthemountaiofToraBora,1,000ofhiscohortswithhiminthosemountai.WiththeAmericanmilitaryforcesnearbyandinthefield,wedidn’tusethebesttrainedtroointheworldtogokilltheworld’snumberonecriminalandterrorist.

TheyoutsourcedthejobtoAfghanwarlords,whoonlyaweekearlierhadbeenontheothersidefightingagaitus,neitherofwhomtrustedeachother.

That’stheenemythatattackedus.That’ ;stheenemythatwasallowedtowalkoutofthosemountai.That’stheenemythatisnowin60countries,withstrongerrecruits.

HealsosaidSaddamHueinwouldhavebeenstronger.Thatisjustfactuallyincorrect.Two-thirdsofthecountrywasano-flyzonewhenwestartedthiswar.Wewouldhavehadsanctio.WewouldhavehadtheU.N.iectors.SaddamHueinwouldhavebeencontinuallyweakening.

Ifthepresidenthadshownthepatiencetogothroughanotherroundofresolution,tositdownwiththoseleaders,say,"Whatdoyouneed,whatdoyouneednow,howmuchmorewillittaketogetyoutojoinus?"we’dbeinastrongerplacetoday.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.

BUSH:Firstofall,ofcourseIknowOsamabinLadenattackedus.Iknowthat.

Andsecondly,tothinkthatanotherroundofresolutiowouldhavecausedSaddamHueintodisarm,disclose,isludicrous,inmyjudgment.Itjustshowsasignificantdifferenceofopinion.

Wetrieddiplomacy.Wedidourbest.Hewashopingtoturnablindeye.And,yes,hewouldhavebeenstrongerhadwenotdealtwithhim.Hehadthecapabilityofmakingweapo,andhewouldhavemadeweapo.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Senator.

KERRY:Thirty-fivetofortycountriesintheworldhadagreatercapabilityofmakingweapoatthemomentthepresidentinvadedthanSaddamHuein.Andwhilehe’sbeendiverted,with9outof10activedutydivisioofourArmy,eithergoingtoIraq,comingbackfromIraq,orgettingreadytogo,NorthKorea’sgottennuclearweapoandtheworldismoredangerous.Iranismovingtowardnuclearweapoandtheworldismoredangerous.Darfurhasagenocide.

Theworldismoredangerous.I’dhavemadeabetterchoice.

LEHRER:Newquestion.Twominutes,SenatorKerry.

Whatisyourpositiononthewholeconceptofpreemptivewar?KERRY:Thepresidentalwayshastheright,andalwayshashadtheright,forpreemptivestrike.ThatwasagreatdoctrinethroughouttheColdWar.Anditwasalwaysoneofthethingswearguedaboutwithreecttoarmscontrol.

Nopresident,throughallofAmericanhistory,haseverceded,andnorwouldI,therighttopreemptinanywaynecearytoprotecttheUnitedStatesofAmerica.

Butifandwhenyoudoit,Jim,youhavetodoitinawaythatpaesthetest,thatpaestheglobaltestwhereyourcountrymen,yourpeopleunderstandfullywhyyou’redoingwhatyou’redoingandyoucanprovetotheworldthatyoudiditforlegitimatereaso.

HerewehaveourownsecretaryofstatewhohashadtoapologizetotheworldforthepresentationhemadetotheUnitedNatio.

Imean,wecanrememberwhenPresidentKeedyintheCubanmiilecrisissenthissecretaryofstatetoParistomeetwithDeGaulle.Andinthemiddleofthediscuion,totellthemaboutthemiilesinCuba,hesaid,"Here,letmeshowyouthephotos."AndDeGaullewavedthemoffandsaid,"No,no,no,no.ThewordofthepresidentoftheUnitedStatesisgoodenoughforme."

Howmanyleadersintheworldtodaywouldreondtous,asaresultofwhatwe’vedone,inthatway?SowhatisattesthereisthecredibilityoftheUnitedStatesofAmericaandhowweleadtheworld.AndIranandIraqarenowmoredangerous--IranandNorthKoreaarenowmoredangerous.

Now,whetherpreemptionisultimatelywhathastohaen,Idon’tknowyet.ButI’lltellyouthis:Aspresident,I’llnevertakemyeyeoffthatball.I’vebeenfightingforproliferationtheentiretime--anti-proliferationtheentiretimeI’vebeenintheCongre.Andwe’vewatchedthispresidentactuallyturnawayfromsomeofthetreatiesthatwereonthetable.

Youdon’thelpyourselfwithothernatiowhenyouturnawayfromtheglobalwarmingtreaty,foritance,orwhenyourefusetodealatlengthwiththeUnitedNatio.

Youhavetoearnthatreect.AndIthinkwehavealotofearningbacktodo.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.

BUSH:Letme--I’mnotexactlysurewhatyoumean,"paestheglobaltest,"youtakepreemptiveactionifyoupaaglobaltest.

Myattitudeisyouta kepreemptiveactioninordertoprotecttheAmericanpeople,thatyouactinordertomakethiscountrysecure.

Myoonenttalksaboutmenotsigningcertaintreaties.LetmetellyouonethingIdidn’tsign,andIthinkitshowsthedifferenceofouropinion--thedifferenceofopinio.Andthatis,Iwouldn’tjointheInternationalCriminalCourt.It’sabodybasedinTheHaguewhereunaccountablejudgesandprosecutorscanpullourtrooordiplomatsupfortrial.

AndIwouldn’tjoinit.AndIunderstandthatincertaincapitalsaroundtheworldthatthatwa’tapopularmove.Butit’stherightmovenottojoinaforeigncourtthatcould--whereourpeoplecouldbeprosecuted.

MyoonentisforjoiningtheInternationalCriminalCourt.Ijustthinktryingtobepopular,kindof,intheglobalsee,ifit’snotinourbestinterestmakesnosee.I’minterestedinworkingwithournatioanddoalotofit.ButI’mnotgoingtomakedecisiothatIthinkarewrongforAmerica.

LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.DoyoubelievethatdiplomacyandsanctiocanresolvethenuclearproblemswithNorthKoreaandIran?Taketheminanyorderyouwouldlike.

BUSH:NorthKorea,first,Ido.Letmesay--Icertainlyhopeso.BeforeIwasswornin,thepolicyofthisgovernmentwastohavebilateralnegotiatiowithNorthKorea.

AndwesignedanagreementwithNorthKoreathatmyadministrationfoundoutthatwasnotbeinghonoredbytheNorthKorea.

AndsoIdecidedthatabetterwaytoaroachtheiuewastogetothernatioinvolved,justbesidesus.AndinCrawford,Texas,JiangZeminandIagreedthatthenuclear-weapo-freepeniula,KoreanPeniula,wasinhisinterestandourinterestandtheworld’sinterest.

AndsowebegananewdialoguewithNorthKorea,onethatincludednotonlytheUnitedStates,butnowChina.AndChina’sagotalotofinfluenceoverNorthKorea,somewaysmorethanwedo.

Aswell,weincludedSouthKorea,JapanandRuia.SonowtherearefivevoiceseakingtoKimJongIl,notjustone.

AndsoifKimJongIldecidesagaintonothonoranagreement,he’snotonlydoinginjusticetoAmerica,he’dbedoinginjusticetoChina,aswell.

AndIthinkthiswillwork.It’snotgoingtoworkifweopenupadialoguewithKimJongIl.Hewantstounravelthesix-partytalks,orthefive-nationcoalitionthat’ssendinghimaclearmeage.

OnIran,Ihopewecandothesamething,continuetoworkwiththeworldtoconvincetheIranianmullahstoabandontheirnuclearambitio.

WeworkedverycloselywiththeforeignministersofFrance,GermanyandGreatBritain,whohavebeenthefolksdeliveringthemeagetothemullahsthatifyouexpecttobepartoftheworldofnatio,getridofyournuclearprograms.

TheIAEAisinvolved.There’saecialprotocolrecentlybeenpaedthatallowsforiectio.

Ihopewecandoit.Andwe’vegotagoodstrategy.

LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.

KERRY:WithreecttoIran,theBritish,French,andGermaweretheoneswhoinitiatedaneffortwithouttheUnitedStates,regrettably,tobegintotrytomovetocurbthenuclearpoibilitiesinIran.Ibelievewecouldhavedonebetter.IthinktheUnitedStatesshouldhaveofferedtheoortunitytoprovidethenuclearfuel,testthem,seewhetherornottheywereactuallylookingforitforpeacefulpurposes.Iftheyweren’twillingtoworkadeal,thenwecouldhaveputsanctiotogether.Thepresidentdidnothing.

WithreecttoNorthKorea,therealstory:WehadiectorsandtelevisioncamerasinthenuclearreactorinNorthKorea.SecretaryBillPerrynegotiatedthatunderPresidentClinton.Andweknewwherethefuelrodswere.Andweknewthelimitsontheirnuclearpower.

ColinPowell,oursecretaryofstate,aouncedonedaythatweweregoingtocontinuethedialogofworkingwiththeNorthKorea.ThepresidentreverseditpubliclywhilethepresidentofSouthKoreawashere.

AndthepresidentofSouthKoreawentbacktoSouthKoreabewilderedandembarraedbecauseitwentagaithispolicy.Andfortwoyears,th isadministrationdidn’ttalkatalltoNorthKorea.

Whiletheydidn’ttalkatall,thefuelrodscameout,theiectorswerekickedout,thetelevisioncameraswerekickedout.Andtoday,therearefourtosevennuclearweapointhehandsofNorthKorea.

Thathaenedonthispresident’swatch.

Now,that,Ithink,isoneofthemostserious,sortof,reversalsormixedmeagesthatyoucouldpoiblysend.

LEHRER:Iwanttomakesure--yes,sir--butinthisoneminute,Iwanttomakesurethatweunderstand--thepeoplewatchingunderstandthedifferencesbetweenthetwoofyouonthis.

Youwanttocontinuethemultinationaltalks,correct?

BUSH:Right.

LEHRER:Andyou’rewillingtodoit...

KERRY:Both.Iwantbilateraltalkswhichputalloftheiues,fromthearmisticeof1952,theeconomiciues,thehumanrightsiues,theartillerydiosaliues,theDMZiuesandthenucleariuesonthetable.

LEHRER:Andyou’reoosedtothat.Right?

BUSH:Theminutewehavebilateraltalks,thesix-partytalkswillunwind.That’sexactlywhatKimJongIlwants.Andbytheway,thebreachontheagreementwasnotthroughplutonium.Thebreachontheagreementishighlyenricheduranium.That’swhatwecaughthimdoing.That’swherehewasbreakingtheagreement.

Secondly,hesaid--myoonentsaidwhereheworkedtoputsanctioonIran--we’vealreadysanctionedIran.Wecan’tsanctionthemanymore.TherearesanctioinplaceonIran.

Andfinally,wewereapartytotheconvention--toworkingwithGermany,FranceandGreatBritaintosendtheirforeignministersintoIran.

LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes.

SenatorKerry,youmentionedDarfur,theDarfurregionofSudan.Fiftythousandpeoplehavealreadydiedinthatarea.Morethanamillionarehomele.Andit’sbeenlabeledanactofongoinggenocide.YetneitheroneofyouoranyoneelsecoectedwithyourcampaigoryouradministrationthatIcanfindhasdiscuedthepoibilityofsendingintroo.

Whynot?

KERRY:Well,I’lltellyouexactlywhynot,butIfirstwanttosaysomethingaboutthosesanctioonIran.

OnlytheUnitedStatesputthesanctioonalone,andthat’sexactlywhatI’mtalkingabout.

Inorderforthesanctiotobeeffective,weshouldhavebeenworkingwiththeBritish,FrenchandGermaandothercountries.Andthat’sthedifferencebetweenthepresidentandme.

Andthere,again,hesortofslidbythequestion.

Now,withreecttoDarfur,yes,itisagenocide.Andmonthsago,manyofuswerepreingforaction.

Ithinkthereasonthatwe’renotsayingsendAmericantrooinatthispointisseveralfold.

Numberone,wecandothisthroughtheAfricanUnion,providingwegivethemthelogisticalsuort.Rightnowallthepresidentisprovidingishumanitariansuort.Weneedtodomorethanthat.They’vegottohavethelogisticalcapacitytogoinandstopthekilling.Andthat’sgoingtorequiremorethanisonthetabletoday.

Ialsobelievethatitis--oneofthereasowecan’tdoitiswe’reoverextended.

Askthepeopleinthearmedforcestoday.We’vegotGuardsandReserveswhoaredoingdoubleduties.We’vegotabackdoordrafttakingplaceinAmericatoday:peoplewithstop-loprogramswherethey’retoldyoucan’tgetoutofthemilitary;nineoutofour10activedutydivisiocommittedtoIraqonewayortheother,eithergoing,comingorpreparing.

SothisisthewaythepresidenthasoverextendedtheUnitedStates.

That’swhy,inmyplan,IaddtwoactivedutydivisiototheUnitedStatesArmy,notforIraq,butforourgeneraldemandsacrotheglobe.Ialsointendtodoublethenumberofecialforcessothatwecandothejobweneedtodowithreectfightingtheterroristsaroundtheworld.Andifwedothat,thenwehavetheabilitytobeabletoreondmorerapidly.

ButI’lltellyouthis,aspresident,ifittookAmericanforcestosomedegreetocoalescetheAfricanUnion,I’dbepreparedtod oitbecausewecouldneverallowanotherRwanda.

It’sthemoralreoibilityforusandtheworld.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.

BUSH:BacktoIran,justforasecond.

ItwasnotmyadministrationthatputthesanctioonIran.ThathaenedlongbeforeIarrivedinWashington,D.C.

IntermsofDarfur,Iagreeit’sgenocide.AndColinPowellsostated.

Wehavecommitted$200millionworthofaid.We’retheleadingdonorintheworldtohelpthesufferingpeoplethere.Wewillcommitmoreovertimetohelp.

WewereverymuchinvolvedattheU.N.onthesanctionpolicyoftheBashirgovernmentintheSudan.PriortoDarfur,AmbaadorJackDanforthhadbeennegotiatinganorth-southagreementthatwewouldhavehopedwouldhavebroughtpeacetotheSudan.

Iagreewithmyoonentthatweshouldn’tbecommittingtroo.WeoughttobeworkingwiththeAfricanUniontodoso--preciselywhatwedidinLiberia.Wehelpedstabilizethesituationwithsometroo,andwhentheAfricanUnioncame,wemovedthemout.

MyhopeisthattheAfricanUnionmovesrapidlytohelpsavelives.Andfortunatelytherainyseasonwillbeendingshortly,whichwillmakeiteasiertogetaidthereandhelpthelong-sufferingpeoplethere.

LEHRER:Newquestion,PresidentBush.Clearly,aswehaveheard,majorpolicydifferencesbetweenthetwoofyou.Aretherealsounderlyingcharacteriuesthatyoubelieve,thatyoubelieveareseriousenoughtodenySenatorKerrythejobascommanderinchiefoftheUnitedStates?

BUSH:That’saloadedquestion.Well,firstofall,IadmireSenatorKerry’sservicetoourcountry.Iadmirethefactthatheisagreatdad.Iareciatethefactthathisdaughtershavebeensokindtomydaughtersinwhathasbeenaprettyhardexperiencefor,Igue,younggirls,seeingtheirdadsouttherecampaigning.

Iadmirerthefactthatheservedfor20yearsintheSenate.AlthoughI’mnotsosureIadmiretherecord.

Iwon’tholditagaithimthathewenttoYale.There’snothingwrongwiththat.

Myconceraboutthesenatoristhat,inthecourseofthiscampaign,I’vebeenlisteningverycarefullytowhathesays,andhechangespositioonthewarinIraq.Hechangespositioonsomethingasfundamentalaswhatyoubelieveinyourcore,inyourheartofhearts,isrightinIraq.

Youcaotleadifyousendmixedmeages.Mixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstoourtroo.Mixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstoourallies.MixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstotheIraqicitize.

Andthat’smybiggestconcernaboutmyoonent.Iadmirehisservice.ButIjustknowhowthisworldworks,andthatinthecouncilsofgovernment,theremustbecertaintyfromtheU.S.president.

Ofcourse,wechangetacticswhenneedto,butweneverchangeourbeliefs,thestrategicbeliefsthatarenecearytoprotectthiscountryintheworld.

LEHRER:Ninetysecondreoe,Senator.

KERRY:Well,firstofall,Iareciateenormouslythepersonalcommentsthepresidentjustmade.AndIsharethemwithhim.Ithinkonlyifyou’redoingthis--andhe’sdoneitmorethanIhaveintermsofthepresidency--canyoubegintogetaseeofwhatitmeatoyourfamilies.Andit’stough.AndsoIacknowledgethathisdaughters--I’vewatchedthem.

I’vechuckledafewtimesatsomeoftheircomments.

(LAUGHTER)

And...

BUSH:I’mtryingtoputaleashonthem.

(LAUGHTER)

KERRY:Well,Iknow.I’velearnednottodothat.

(LAUGHTER)

AndIhavegreatreectandadmirationforhiswife.Ithinkshe’saterrificperson...

BUSH:Thankyou.

KERRY:...andagreatfirstlady.

Butwedohavedifferences.I’mnotgoingtotalkaboutadifferenceofcharacter.Idon’tthinkthat’smyjobormybusine.

Butletmetalkaboutsomethingthatthepresidentjustsortoffinishedupwith.Maybesomeonewouldcallitacharactertrait,maybesomebodywouldn’t.

Butthisiueofcertainty.It’sonethingtobecertain,butyouc anbecertainandbewrong.

It’sanothertobecertainandberight,ortobecertainandbemovingintherightdirection,orbecertainaboutaprincipleandthenlearnnewfactsandtakethosenewfactsandputthemtouseinordertochangeandgetyourpolicyright.

WhatIworryaboutwiththepresidentisthathe’snotacknowledgingwhat’sontheground,he’snotacknowledgingtherealitiesofNorthKorea,he’snotacknowledgingthetruthofthescienceofstem-cellresearchorofglobalwarmingandotheriues.

Andcertaintysometimescangetyouintrouble.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.

BUSH:Well,Ithink--listen,Ifullyagreethatoneshouldshifttactics,andwewill,inIraq.Ourcommandershavegotalltheflexibilitytodowhatisnecearytosucceed.

ButwhatIwon’tdoischangemycorevaluesbecauseofpoliticsorbecauseofpreure.

AnditisoneofthethingsI’velearnedintheWhiteHouse,isthatthere’senormouspreureonthepresident,andhecaotwiltunderthatpreure.Otherwise,theworldwon’tbebetteroff.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.

KERRY:Ihavenointentionofwilting.I’veneverwiltedinmylife.AndI’veneverwaveredinmylife.

IknowexactlywhatweneedtodoinIraq,andmypositionhasbeencoistent:SaddamHueinisathreat.Heneededtobedisarmed.WeneededtogototheU.N.Thepresidentneededtheauthoritytouseforceinordertobeabletogethimtodosomething,becauseheneverdiditwithoutthethreatofforce.

Butwedidn’tneedtorushtowarwithoutaplantowinthepeace.

LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes,SenatorKerry.

Ifyouareelectedpresident,whatwillyoutaketothatofficethinkingisthesinglemostseriousthreattothenationalsecuritytotheUnitedStates?

KERRY:Nuclearproliferation.Nuclearproliferation.There’ssome600-plustoofuecuredmaterialstillintheformerSovietUnionandRuia.Attheratethatthepresidentiscurrentlysecuringit,it’lltake13yearstogetit.

Ididalotofworkonthis.Iwroteabookaboutitseveralyearsago--six,sevenyearsago--called"TheNewWar,"whichsawthedifficultiesofthisinternationalcriminalnetwork.Andbackthen,weinterceptedasuitcaseinaMiddleEasterncountrywithnuclearmaterialsinit.Andtheblackmarketsalepricewasabout$250million.

Now,thereareterroriststryingtogettheirhandsonthatstufftoday.

Andthispresident,Iregrettosay,hassecuredlenuclearmaterialinthelasttwoyearssince9/11thanwedidinthetwoyearspreceding9/11.

Wehavetodothisjob.Andtodothejob,youcan’tcutthemoneyforit.Thepresidentactuallycutthemoneyforit.Youhavetoputthemoneyintoitandthefundingandtheleadership.

AndpartofthatleadershipissendingtherightmeagetoplaceslikeNorthKorea.

Rightnowthepresidentisendinghundredsofmillioofdollarstoresearchbunker-bustingnuclearweapo.TheUnitedStatesispursuinganewsetofnuclearweapo.Itdoe’tmakesee.

Youtalkaboutmixedmeages.We’retellingotherpeople,"Youcan’thavenuclearweapo,"butwe’repursuinganewnuclearweaponthatwemightevencontemplateusing.

Notthispresident.I’mgoingtoshutthatprogramdown,andwe’regoingtomakeitcleartotheworldwe’reseriousaboutcontainingnuclearproliferation.

Andwe’regoingtogetthejobofcontainingallofthatnuclearmaterialinRuiadoneinfouryears.Andwe’regoingtobuildthestrongestinternationalnetworktopreventnuclearproliferation.

ThisisthescaleofwhatPresidentKeedysetouttodowiththenucleartestbantreaty.It’sourgeneration’sequivalent.AndIintendtogetitdone.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,Mr.President.

BUSH:Actually,we’veincreasedfundingfordealingwithnuclearproliferationabout35percentsinceI’vebeenthepresident.Secondly,we’vesetupwhat’scalledthe--well,fir stofall,Iagreewithmyoonentthatthebiggestthreatfacingthiscountryisweapoofmadestructioninthehandsofaterroristnetwork.Andthat’swhyproliferationisoneofthecenterpiecesofamulti-prongstrategytomakethecountrysafer.

Myadministrationstartedwhat’scalledtheProliferationSecurityInitiative.Over60natioinvolvedwithdisruptingthetra-shipmentofinformationand/orweapoofmadestructionmaterials.

Andwe’vebeeneffective.WebustedtheA.Q.Khannetwork.ThiswasaproliferatoroutofPakistanthatwassellingsecretstoplaceslikeNorthKoreaandLibya.WeconvincedLibyatodisarm.It’sacentralpartofdealingwithweapoofmadestructionandproliferation.

I’lltellyouanotherwaytohelpprotectAmericainthelongrunistocontinuewithmiiledefees.Andwe’vegotarobustresearchanddevelopmentprogramthathasbeenongoingduringmyadministration.We’llbeimplementingamiile-defeesystemrelativelyquickly.

Andthatisanotherwaytohelpdealwiththethreatsthatwefaceinthe21stcentury.

Myoonentoosedthemiiledefees.

LEHRER:Justforthisone-minutediscuionhere,justforwhateversecondsittakes:Soit’scorrecttosay,thatifsomebodyislisteningtothis,thatbothofyouagree,ifyou’rereelected,Mr.President,andifyouareelected,thesinglemostseriousthreatyoubelieve,bothofyoubelieve,isnuclearproliferation?

BUSH:Inthehandsofaterroristenemy.

KERRY:Weapoofmadestruction,nuclearproliferation.

Butagain,thetestorthedifferencebetweenus,thepresidenthashadfouryearstotrytodosomethingaboutit,andNorthKoreahasgotmoreweapoIranismovingtowardweapo.Andathispace,itwilltake13yearstosecurethoseweapoinRuia.

I’mgoingtodoitinfouryears,andI’mgoingtoimmediatelysetouttohavebilateraltalkswithNorthKorea.

LEHRER:Yourreoetothat?

BUSH:Again,Ican’ttellyouhowbigamistakeIthinkthatis,tohavebilateraltalkswithNorthKorea.It’spreciselywhatKimJongIlwants.Itwillcausethesix-partytalkstoevaporate.ItwillmeanthatChinanolongerisinvolvedinconvincing,alongwithus,forKimJongIltogetridofhisweapo.It’sabigmistaketodothat.

WemusthaveChina’sleverageonKimJongIl,besidesourselves.

Andifyouenterbilateraltalks,they’llbehaytowalkawayfromthetable.Idon’tthinkthat’llwork.

LEHRER:Allright.Mr.President,thisisthelastquestion.Andtwominutes.It’sanewsubject--newquestion,andithastodowithPresidentPutinandRuia.Didyoumisjudgehimorareyou--doyoufeelthatwhatheisdoinginthenameofantiterrorismbychangingsomedemocraticproceesisOK?

BUSH:No,Idon’tthinkit’sOK,andsaidsopublicly.Ithinkthatthereneedstobechecksandbalancesinademocracy,andmadethatveryclearthatbycoolidatingpowerinthecentralgovernment,he’ssendingasignaltotheWesternworldandUnitedStatesthatperhahedoe’tbelieveinchecksandbalances,andItoldhimthat.

Imean,he’salsoastrongallyinthewaronterror.Heis--listen,theywentthroughahorriblesituationinBeslan,wheretheseterroristsgueddownyoungschoolkids.That’sthenatureoftheenemy,bytheway.That’swhyweneedtobefirmandresolveinbringingthemtojustice.

That’spreciselywhatVladimirPutinunderstands,aswell.

I’vegotagoodrelationwithVladimir.Andit’simportantthatwedohaveagoodrelation,becausethatenablesmetobettercommenttohim,andtobettertodiscuwithhim,someofthedecisiohemakes.Ifoundthat,inthisworld,thatit’simportanttoestablishgoodpersonalrelatiohiwithpeoplesothatwhenyouhavedisagreements,you’reabletodisagreeinawaythatiseffective.

AndsoI’vetoldhimmyopinion.

Ilookforwardtodiscuingitmorewithhim,astimegoeson.Ruiaisacountryintraition.Vladimirisgoingtohav etomakesomehardchoices.AndIthinkit’sveryimportantfortheAmericanpresident,aswellasotherWesternleaders,toremindhimofthegreatbenefitsofdemocracy,thatdemocracywillbesthelpthepeoplerealizetheirhopesandairatioanddreams.AndIwillcontinueworkingwithhimoverthenextfouryears.

LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.

KERRY:Well,letmejustsayquicklythatI’vehadanextraordinaryexperienceofwatchingupcloseandpersonalthattraitioninRuia,becauseIwasthererightafterthetraformation.AndIwasprobablyoneofthefirstsenators,alongwithSenatorBobSmithofNewHamhire,aformersenator,godownintotheKGBunderneathTreblinkaSquareandseereamsoffileswithnamesinthem.

ItsortofbroughthomethetraitiontodemocracythatRuiawastryingtomake.

Iregretwhat’shaenedinthesepastmonths.AndIthinkitgoesbeyondjustthereoetoterror.Mr.Putinnowcontrolsallthetelevisionstatio.Hispoliticaloositionisbeingputinjail.

AndIthinkit’sveryimportanttotheUnitedStates,obviously,tohaveaworkingrelatiohipthatisgood.Thisisaveryimportantcountrytous.Wewantapartnership.

Butwealwayshavetostandupfordemocracy.AsGeorgeWillsaidtheotherday,"Freedomonthemarch;notinRuiarightnow."

Now,I’dliketocomebackforaquickmoment,ifIcan,tothatiueaboutChinaandthetalks.Becausethat’soneofthemostcriticaliueshere:NorthKorea.

Justbecausethepresidentsaysitcan’tbedone,thatyou’dloseChina,doe’tmeanitcan’tbedone.Imean,thisisthepresidentwhosaid"Therewereweapoofmadestruction,"said"Miionaccomplished,"saidwecouldfightthewaronthecheap--noneofwhichweretrue.

WecouldhavebilateraltalkswithKimJongIl.AndwecangetthoseweapoatthesametimeaswegetChina.BecauseChinahasaninterestintheoutcome,too.

LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.

BUSH:YouknowmyopiniononNorthKorea.Ican’tsayitanymoreplainly.

LEHRER:Well,butwhenheusedtheword"truth"again...

BUSH:Pardonme?

LEHRER:...talkingaboutthetruthofthematter.Heusedtheword"truth"again.Didthatraiseanyhackleswithyou?

BUSH:Oh,I’maprettycalmguy.Idon’ttakeitpersonally.

LEHRER:OK.Allright.

BUSH:Youknow,welookedatthesameintelligenceandcametothesameconclusion:thatSaddamHueinwasagravethreat.

AndIdon’tholditagaithimthathesaidgravethreat.I’mnotgoingtogoaroundthecountrysayinghedidn’ttellthetruth,whenhelookedatthesameintelligenceIdid.

KERRY:Itwasathreat.That’snottheiue.Theiueiswhatyoudoaboutit.

Thepresidentsaidhewasgoingtobuildatruecoalition,exhausttheremediesoftheU.N.andgotowarasalastresort.

Thosewordsreallyhavetomeansomething.And,unfortunately,hedidn’tgotowarasalastresort.

NowwehavethisincrediblemeinIraq--$200billion.It’snotwhattheAmericanpeoplethoughttheyweregettingwhentheyvoted.

LEHRER:Allright,thatbringsustoclosingstatements.

And,again,asdeterminedbyacointo,SenatorKerry,yougofirst,andyouhavetwominutes.

KERRY:Thankyou,Jim,verymuch.

Thankyouverymuchtotheuniversity,again.

Thankyou,Mr.President.

MyfellowAmerica,asI’vesaidattheverybegiingofthisdebate,bothPresidentBushandIlovethiscountryverymuch.There’snodoubt,Ithink,aboutthat.

Butwehaveadifferentsetofconvictioabouthowwemakeourcountrystrongerhereathomeandreectedagainintheworld.

Iknowthatformanyofyousittingathome,parentsofkidsinIraq,youwanttoknowwho’sthepersonwhocouldbeacommanderinchiefwhocouldgetyourkidshomeandgetthejobdoneandwinthepeace.

AndforalltherestoftheparentsinAmericawhoarewonderingabouttheirkidsgoingtotheschooloran ywhereelseintheworld,whatkindofworldthey’regoingtogrowupin,letmelookyouintheeyeandsaytoyou:Idefendedthiscountryasayoungmanatwar,andIwilldefenditaspresidentoftheUnitedStates.

ButIhaveadifferencewiththispresident.Ibelievewhenwe’restrongestwhenwereachoutandleadtheworldandbuildstrongalliances.

IhaveaplanforIraq.Ibelievewecanbesucceful.I’mnottalkingaboutleaving.I’mtalkingaboutwiing.Andweneedafreshstart,anewcredibility,apresidentwhocanbringalliestoourside.

Ialsohaveaplantowinthewaronterror,fundinghomelandsecurity,strengtheningourmilitary,cuttingourfinances,reachingouttotheworld,againbuildingstrongalliances.

IbelieveAmerica’sbestdaysareaheadofusbecauseIbelievethatthefuturebelongstofreedom,nottofear.

That’sthecountrythatI’mgoingtofightfor.AndIaskyoutogivemetheoortunitytomakeyouproud.Iaskyoutogivemetheoortunitytoleadthisgreatnation,sothatwecanbestrongerhereathome,reectedagainintheworld,andhavereoibleleadershipthatwedeserve.

Thankyou.AndGodbleAmerica.

LEHRER:Mr.President,twominutes.

BUSH:Thankyouverymuchtonight,Jim.Senator.

IfAmericashowsuncertaintyorweakneinthisdecade,theworldwilldrifttowardtragedy.That’snotgoingtohaen,solongasI’myourpresident.

Thenextfouryearswewillcontinuetostrengthenourhomelanddefees.Wewillstrengthenourintelligence-gatheringservices.Wewillreformourmilitary.Themilitarywillbeanall-volunteerarmy.

Wewillcontinuetostayontheoffee.Wewillfighttheterroristsaroundtheworldsowedonothavetofacethemhereathome.

We’llcontinuetobuildouralliances.I’llneverturnoverAmerica’snationalsecurityneedstoleadersofothercountries,aswecontinuetobuildthosealliances.Andwe’llcontinuetoreadfreedom.Ibelieveinthetraformationalpowerofliberty.IbelievethatthefreeIraqisinthisnation’sinterests.IbelieveafreeAfghanistanisinthisnation’sinterest.

AndIbelievebothafreeAfghanistanandafreeIraqwillserveasapowerfulexampleformilliowhopleadinsilenceforlibertyinthebroaderMiddleEast.

We’vedonealotofhardworktogetheroverthelastthreeandahalfyears.We’vebeenchallenged,andwe’verisentothosechallenges.We’veclimbedthemightymountain.Iseethevalleybelow,andit’savalleyofpeace.

Bybeingsteadfastandresoluteandstrong,bykeepingourword,bysuortingourtroo,wecanachievethepeaceweallwant.

Iareciateyourlisteningtonight.Iaskforyourvote.AndmayGodcontinuetobleourgreatland.

LEHRER:Andthatendstonight’sdebate.Areminder,thesecondpresidentialdebatewillbeaweekfromtomorrow,October8th,fromWashingtonUniversityinSt.Louis.CharlesGionofABCNewswillmoderateatownhall-typeevent.Then,onOctober13th,fromArizonaStateUniversityinTempe,BobSchiefferofCNewswillmoderateanexchangeondomesticpolicythatwillbesimilarinformattotonight’s.

Also,thiscomingTuesday,atCaseWesternReserveUniversityinCleveland,thevicepresidentialcandidates,VicePresidentCheneyandSenatorEdwards,willdebatewithmycolleague,GwenIfill,moderating.

Fornow,thankyou,SenatorKerry,PresidentBush.

FromCoralGables,Florida,I’mJimLehrer.Thankyouandgoodnight.

(ALAUSE)