思瑟 桃勒丝

LZH： Since I believe people have no idea about your work in China， I will ask you some basic questions. How would you describe yourself？ As an artist？

ST： I call myself a professional ‘in-betweener’， because the sense of smell is universal and there is a world full of smells， and there’s a whole world to teach how to smell. Since I work all over the place， it’s hard to limit it to just… one… you know， niche， or a small niche category like art or creativity…. all the other things I do are as important as what I do in a creative contextC so my most preferred professional title would be， a professional in-betweener.

LZH： That’s cool， because you work a lot on yourself， on your own sense of smell； and you also work on other peoples’ sense of fear. So what do you think of this？ I mean， as an artist， in a way you go in one direction - into the direction of discovering yourself - but in other ways you go another direction…

ST： I don’t see myself as an artist， to get back to where we started， but rather as a curious human being. As long as there’re footsteps on the moon， the sky isn’t the limit for curiosity.

One of my main projects has been to look into smell molecules at all levels： in relation to the human body； and， on a much bigger scale， in cities， like a microcosm of humanity， you know. And the whole oeuvre of my research on the human body started off with myself， asking “who am I beyond the way I look？”

I have a smell ID as unique as my fingerprints， so why don’t I know about it？ Why don’t I appreciate it？ And， what if I started to use that as my kind of image to the world？ You know， instead of sending out appearances of visual images.

So I started to collect my own smell， with the help of advanced technology， and then break down my smell ID to several molecules - as much as I could with the tools I had at my disposal. And with that result， the outcome of that analysis， I reproduced my own body smell with the help of chemical components… As you know I have a laboratory containing some 3000 chemical components， with which I try to reproduce the smells that surround me， smells that are out there in the world I’m participating in.

And then the second part of that body project， the “body smell-scape” project， was that I got commissioned by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 2004-6 to investigate the sense capacities of new technology. In my work， as you know， the technology is not so much in the result， but rather in the process： the way I work， the way I obtain my smells， the way I reproduce my smell， is where high-tech is important. Nevertheless， the way I presents the results of my work is also pretty advanced technology - but it’s not technology in our usual definition. It’s like invisible technology… the technology I used to put replicated sweat on to was very complicated， for example.

Anyway， the MIT project was interested in seeing if I could smell that people were anxious. And this was during the Bush government， when the whole notion of terrorism was all over the US press， and everybody was anxious and paranoid. Whatever border you crossed， these were the issues. So I worked with 21 men that suffered a serious phobia towards other human beings C there were different reasons， some racial， but all kinds of sophisticated， complicated reasons， etc. These patients were provided by several psychiatrists and psychologists all over the world， from China to California， and from Norway to South Africa.

The reason I chose men in this project was not because of statistical reasons， but simply because men sweat more， and I was keen to get results as quickly as possible， so this project was dedicated more or less to men. So these 21 men wore a device of mine， that collected their body sweat whenever they had an attack of fear. The device would send me the information overnight， which I would analyse and then replicate with chemical components， so in the end you had reproduced sweat from these anxious men.

Then I contained this fluid， reproduced sweat， with the nanotechnology called micro-encapsulation. This allows smell to be packed in nano-units， and I developed a binding substance that allowed me to connect an adhesive to the binder. So I was able to put it onto surfaces， let’s say a wall， or I could print it on paper. In presenting of the fear project， the wall became metaphorical to skin： so you could touch a person’s skin - that is， the wall - and you released the person’s sweat. This is how I used that medium to show my invisible message.

LZH： I think that’s a visible message. You know， a lot of time when we talk about human beings as individuals， we imply their skin color， their wearing a certain kind of dress， their behaviour - but some of these are constructed by society， so it’s not really“you”.

I think it’s very important nowadays that we know that we have particular DNA， and we have particular smells： we have something that’s not transferable and can’t be copied， and I think that’s something very interesting…

ST： I mean， in most parts of the world - I’m not so sure about how it is in China - but in most parts of the world we are born to interact around the place with our hands， and so we communicate our smells to society with perfume ads. The marketing made use of whatever our physiology left behind， and smell is never an issue in terms of everyday conversation. We cover up our body， our smell， and we are covering up every smell in our surroundings： we sanitise， we deodorise， we sterilise everything.. Because we think we protect ourselves like this. But we are reducing so much information， by removing so much information which I think exists in smells. Smell provides you with information that you don’t see， but nevertheless it’s very important information in context.

LZH： If we are too much blended into this multi-layered information， smell， or whatever， by living in society， that also triggers issues， these collective issues today： being involved in that society， and being yourself.

ST： The fact is， the metabolism or the body’s hardware - I call the senses the “software” -they are working independently of all this.

The tricky thing is that some of the processing happens consciously， and some happens unconsciously. In the case of the nose， this process happens unconsciously in most humans， but also… one fact here， which is very， very important， is that the nose knows everything long before the eyes ever start to process. But since these processes happen subconsciously， we’re not aware of what the nose is finding out， you know.

In my case， that’s different， because I decided to be conscious when I smell， so I can program my brain to say： “No， the nose is doing a job and the eyes are relaxing”， “No， now the nose and eyes are doing the processing， and ears are relaxing.” So I started to use my senses like… like on the computer I use different kinds of software for different purposes. And that is so amazing， it reveals qualities in life I never knew existed.

What it does， is that it brings back the whole playfulness which I think gets lost when we grow up， you know what I mean -this ability to understand the world from the point of view of play， and game， and joy… it has somehow become lost in all the serious issues we are confronted with everyday.

By bringing back the senses to where they’re supposed to be， in the beginning， one gets some amazing qualities back on track， you know.

LZH： You also work with the smell of the kitchen， and the smell of WWI， and the smell of someone’s mouth. For me that’s also very extreme， it’s a very personal kind of experience in the public area， especially when it’s related to culture and art. So what is really being triggered there？ People barely see things， but they do smell and react…what kind of reactions do people have when you showcase yourself？

ST： With smell people will react immediately， whereas with images， you go to rendering process in a part of your brain…oh， do I know this？ Is this familiar？ Have I seen it？ Do I like it？ Do I not？ And then you have the subconscious and you have a kind of emotional attachment. With smell you immediately think something， you are like - oh！ Got the touch -be it positive or negative. I took to be free in my research- I might have a Phd in chemistry， at the end of the day I might become a scientist， but， because smell is so much about life， breathing is my topic， I thought “it’s perverse to sit in a white square lab and do all the experiments with mice and rats”.

So， since at the end of the day， what I’m concerned with is humanity and life， I decided to use the creative world as my platform to show my research and to ask my questions. And by doing that， I’ve gained the freedom of subjectivity. In science， you play as “we” and you have to be objective： you write the paper， you hope somebody publishes your paper， and you go on and on… while in my case， I use myself to ask questions.

Thus， my research is placed in the context of art and design： generally speaking， the“creative world”， the platform of creativity， because nobody asks what I study as long as I deliver. And I have the right to be subjective， and have the right to ask some questions that I would never ask in science. But in this case I ask as Sissel， but not as “we”.

So that’s it， I’ve always been trying things out on myself before I try it out on somebody else.

LZH： Do you consider yourself like - nowadays a very popular “identity” - an activist？

ST： No， I characterise myself as a sophisticated human being…

LZH： So you participate in the society in a very different way？

ST： Yes， I engage in society. I am not an activist at all， I am not a provocateur in terms of the definition of provocation. I’m provoking with my work yes， but that’s not for the purposes of provocation to make …disturbance. It is happening anyway， but that is not the main intention.

LZH： I understand your way is very scientific： you do a lot of research， you go to many places.

ST： The process is the product. The process is the most important part of my work： what you’ll see， what you hear， or what you read about…is just a long journey. My final conclusion is just a micro statement compared to all the materials which are there. So bits and bytes drop here and there， some in the creative world， science world， commercial world…the main research， which has to do with the nose and chemistry，and smell， is endless. It’s like a train that will never stop - you might stop to get petrol or food， but it goes on and on and on…

LZH： Do you consider yourself more …subjectively working or objectively working？

ST： I can only be subjective， and I decided to take that position. Otherwise I would have been ascientist， and super objective. In the subject of science you are not allowed to be subjective at all： you personally might ask a question， but you have to operate and to augment the research， not only for your own point of looking， but more generally. Yeah - that’s what science is.

Art just has to be subjective， and I need that freedom. Because there’re so many unanswered questions， where the is nose is concerned. And I want to answer them by doing， and having that freedom that the creative world provides me with.

LZH： I remember very strongly in， about 2008， when we showed your work， in MUDAC， And I remember that a lot of people got offended immediately， and they were actually people who work in the field of art. So I was quite surprised because I think normally people give each other a kind of space， a kind of understanding， and somehow in the art world， there is no such…“compromise”.

ST： The art world is very stereotypical！ Maybe it has changed now…that was 2006， one was in 2008.. it’s a long time ago， the world has become a little more tolerant since then and it goes very quickly. I’m becoming a bit more famous so people know who I am， but， still… I had a big， big project in the Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo， so they invited me to do smell work. They knew my work， and I was happy to participate. I went to Tokyo， and after two days， they started to complain：

“Oh Ms Tolaas， it smells in your room.”“You must be kidding… you think I came across half the world to produce a work that doesn’t smell when my work really is about smell？ Why did you invite me？“Oh yes， but I think we have to give people masks to enter your room…”“I’m sorry？”

Yeah， there were all these issues… to make a long story short， I went back to Berlin， and after two weeks， they called me and said：“Ah Ms Tolaas， your room is smelly， it’s still smelly.” I said， “Ok， you call the guy who next to me， he had a big， big screen with thousands and millions of pixels， do you call him to say there’s too much to look at？” and I never heard back from them.

It’s not only about the administration or the curators， it’s also the institutions that are not updated enough for the time they’re operating in. You’re dealing with a lot of old fashioned institutions： “Art is to look at， art is maybe to hear but you have to be silent， you have to have headphones， you should this and that， you shouldn’t touch art” …you know all this conservative stuff！

S o i f y o u a r e s o courageous to invite someone like me， at least you have to prepare the institution for what is coming！ But most of these institutions in the art world， they are not able to do that， for whatever reason.

L Z H ： I t h i n k that’s a very i n t e r e s t i n g question， the point you raised. As I understand， there are a lot of institutions- f r o m m y p o i n t o f view C that are supposed to be standing on a position of neutrality C making a bridge for art and truth to the audience， and bringing points from the audience back to art so that people can find ground for communication. But nowadays there are so many questions and“obligations” from the institutions… they do fulfill a lot but they become censors.

I had a similar experience in England， in 2009， people from the institution thought the art presented was too brutal， too bloody， too much killing… we always have to confront this kind of situation and find our way out. As you said， there’s more tolerance in this， but that triggers the issues in the art system - the system needs to change， but how are we going to change it？ I’m also deeply impressed by the way you’re telling me： “Let’s change the world”. Let’s say， “let’s change the system”， but how can we do it？

ST： You have to make your own system. It’s tough to change the existing one， so you make your own - that’s one part of the solution - you know， otherwise it will take too much time or cost too much money C there are enough people around who are willing to do that. In the general art world， it’s so commercial - it’s all about … it’s becoming like the new IT bag. All the other…amazing art and creativity going on， it’s hard to have a chance to survive in that commercial context.

So I mean， it depends what you want to do. If you want to go on with an ambitious project and to put it in huge institutions like museums， it’s always problematic. I think in general， the MoMa is not as important as it has been， but they still use the argument： “Oh we don’t have any money， but you should be happy to be exhibited at MoMA.” That destroyed one of my most important pieces- the smellscape in Berlin， at MoMA， which they had for free. It is devastating， but that’s exactly what’s happening…they are not prepared for the smell.

Some of the audience wanted to smell， and the work fell down and got destroyed. MoMa said “You should be happy to be at MoMa”， I mean， be happy to be destroyed at MoMA？

It’s very often the case. More and more young people started to do their own presentations， their own way of showing their interest and their work， so I don’t see that as a problem. I am not so familiar with how it is in China but I have a feeling that more and more alternate situations are popping up. People you introduced me to - they are much more tolerant and much more creative and curious about how to present what for which kind of purpose， not just for the mainstream… I think it’s changing. I always find a way， somehow it’s strange， and I never really care so much.

LZH： I think it’s important， we can’t just tie ourselves up. We always have to reach the general public and communicate with other people. What you do with the kids？ And to bring your work into the context of Olympics…it’s always reaching to and bridging a much broader public.

ST： Also most of all， my works concern children. I mean， generally， people are reactive： like I said before， they react to smell so quickly， and a lot of people to have fun. My experience is， wherever I do workshops with smells， be it for kindergartens， 6-12， or Mercedez CEOs， nobody leaves the lab without a big smile on their face.

The more extreme the smells are， the more fun people have. And that tells it all， having people getting upset about my work is because it’s so direct that sometimes people react immediately. If you get upset about a picture， they can at least leave the room and get reactive on the street. In my case they are reacting immediately， ‘cos smell is so quick. And that， I think， is a favour of smell， getting it out and moving on.

LZH： I think your works… it doesn’t matter what kind of smell it is， it could be soap or cheese， but people do share it with their original human taste or sensors.

ST： Yes， it’s touching， and smell is emotional. Also people are really … since smell is so much related to one’s personal history， it reminds you of things： it triggers memory， it triggers the past - and these are qualities， these can be things - in both ways quality -that disturb or make you happy.

When I showed my smell project in Korea， I had very old man who was crying in front of the wall…and my translator told me that last time he smelt human sweat was during the Japanese-Korean war， and he was so touched by the piece. His grandson asked me， “Sissel， could you send my great-grandfather a small bottle of this sweat？ He would be very， very happy.” And I did it， and I got this very amazing email back about how much his great-grandfather liked it. You know， these are small moments when you think “mission accomplished”.

Like， in MIT， one woman was passing by the wall， everyday on the way to work. And she was so obsessed by the scent， she was kissing the wall every morning for 3 months.

So sometimes the wall had red lipstick， some times it had violet or pink， and I spoke to her， and she said： “every time I stood in front of this guy （the abstract， invisible wall）， he’s calling.” So she got a kind of relationship to this “person”. And you had other people who got disgusted - “oh， this is awful！ Body sweat！”

Again， because we have no clue， we don’t have a chance to find out what the smell is. Especially in the US， where “smell” is kind of taboo， and often something to be too aware of. You have to deodorise everything. I mean…since my works are mostly contextual and site-specific， and sometimes some works travel and expand， or they’re displayed differently due to site conditions， it’s very very interesting to see where the work has been found or where I conduct my research. It’s very different if I make a work travel. LZH： You do your work in a very long time process， what’s y o u r m e t h o d behind it？ And w h a t m a k e s your interest continue with t h i s k i n d o f research？ ST： Since I use scientific models or methodology to find the result， I’m not just sitting around and doing abstract painting， or using metaphorical， abstract smells. So I can’t be sitting around and mixing smells， and saying：“Oh this is the sea…”“This is Berlin..” - that would be easy. I really pay lots of attention to the reality that I am in， and try to go beyond the surface with scientific tools to capture and make an image of the invisible… I make an image of the invisible， I analyse the invisible， and I reproduce the invisible. That’s a long process， and primarily the long process is because nobody has done it. I need to find possibilities to do this， and find sponsors who would help me to do it. It’s a lot of work to break down smells into thousands of chemical components - I mean， who want to do that for free？

For me it’s very important to do it like that and that’s the way I work. Sometimes a process can take a month， sometimes 2 weeks， sometimes 5 years…and with the city smellscape projects， they always took longer， because the cities were far away and I couldn’t stay there continuously…Also because I’m after smells that are there permanently， and to really assure yourself that it’s “permanent”， you have to visit the smell at different times of the day， different times of the year…it’s not just “grab something and to pretend that this is the case”.

I really try to precise， even from a subjective perspective. Sometime it’s long， sometimes it’s short， all depends. After all these years， I’ve slowly built up some reputation and collaborations， with amazing companies that facilitate me to work quick and efficiently， to get things done in speeds that I was dreaming about 10 years ago. We are doing Istanbul and I have 2.5 months： I’m supposed to find neighbourhoods， smells， in a month.

The company who supports me set up a lab in Tel Aviv， in the Middle East， to facilitate me to do fundamental research in a very complicated situation. These are qualities， and improvements of my working conditions - which are amazing.

Working in Detroit or Kansas City for 6 years is also down to that： I didn’t have time to go every month， it’s far away， and funding it… I wouldn’t say that to invite Sissel you need 6 years of planning. No， I can do it in a week. .if you have a million I’ll do it in a day， hahaha. I’ll turn the world upside down.

But the problem is…no， not the problem... I’ve been very keen on my life， and I want to contribute a better quality of life for everyone. That’s been the main drive of what I do， and I think about how I can achieve it， make people wake up， challenge people to use their bodies and senses in a different way， a more sophisticated way， or “proper”way. It’s not always related with money.

So I am now starting to see an opportunity to turn some of these amazing research works into commercial applications. To earn some fundamental money， that’s what I’m starting to do and that’s a completely direction for me. And it opens up completely new ways that I will approach my knowledge for different displays， in different institutions and locations， wherever the work is going to be shown.

I’ve worked with several hardwares and softwares， I’ve been making a lot of analog tools and this is fantastic. I never thought I would do it， I thought I was against the commercial world， but now the world is ready， and that’s what I say…I think the time is right now. I never had so m u c h r e q u e s t s i n m y l i f e a s m u c h a s I h a d i n l a s t a couple months. It’s cool.

I think we can start to change the world now， get ready to start， start in China.

LZH： We can do that， China is definitely the place for you.

ST： The world is divided， for me it’s not a negative thing. However， in the Western part of that world， including US， people are so spoiled， they just want to consume， and there’s no more showing any passion or enthusiasm towards anything.

Going to China， going to Russia， going to India and going to the Middle East is like a wake-up call for me. People are so curious， and enthusiastic， passionate for what you tell them， it’s amazing， and that makes one wants to do more， contribute more， develop more and be creative. The context you do thinking is so important for your thoughts！

So being in Berlin where creativity is the capital of the city， it becomes alibi of doing nothing.

What do you do？ I am creative？ I’m working on a project， what does project mean？ All these abstract words.. But if you go do Russia， “What you do？” “I am working on changing the world…” and people have ideas and they are doing it！

LZH： Different societies produce different attitudes， and I think a lot that if I continue do intellectual work， I could really produce something very solid.

ST： Absolutely， you need application， as long as you can combine it with some stuff， thoughts out there， your thoughts will also make sense.

LZH： Tell me more about your next action？

ST： Istanbul. Tel Aviv， and I’m doing these analog devices for Austria， I’m doing a project in London on the subject of Home， also another project in New York for the most innovative chemist of the year. I’m going to US for a week to do lots of talks. And I’m also doing a project in Geneva with dancers， in collaboration with Isabelle Luis…all stuff. And I’ll go to China.

LZH： One terrible question for you： how can you pass on your knowledge to younger generations？

ST： That’s easy， give me a situation I’ll transfer everything.

LZH： With your “hardware”？

ST： Not with my hardware： start with my own body.

If a young person comes to me， the first thing you have to go through is what to change in yourself.

LZH： Sissel， how did you start？

ST： I started with myself.

LZH： Where am I now？

ST： I’m working on you. Listen let’s be child again， let’s start to find out what the body can do， where are the censors， how do they work and how can they be absolutely maximal.

Then， that’s the first step. there’s unlimited possibilities.

LZH： That’s why you teach a lot in universities ST： For me education is investment to the future. You’ve got to transmit your knowledge for your future purposes， I do a lot of workshops and yeah， that’s it！

LZH：（我假设中国的读者对你的作品还没有太多了解，因此我会从较为基本的问题开始）

简单介绍一下你的身份？

ST：我称自己为一个职业的“中间人”，这个世界充满了各种各样的气味，这个世界也应该教会人如何去闻这些气味。我的工作内容和地点多种多样，非常难以把自己局限在某种小众的艺术或者创意领域里，换句话说，对我来说在其他领域所做的事情跟在艺术领域里做的是同等重要的。因此我最希望当的是一个“中间人”。

LZH：非常有趣，我知道你的大量作品是关于你自己的气味的，你也创作关于他者的恐惧的气味作品。那么作为一个艺术家，你如何看待这种自身的向度，和他人、社会向度之间的关系？

ST：回到我们最开始所说的，我不认为自己是一个艺术家，我是一个“好奇者”。既然月亮上能有了脚印，天空便不再能限制人的好奇。我的主要研究方向是对气味分子的调查，尤其是它们如何联系到人的身体。另一个研究方向则在更广的城市维度，城市就像是“生命”的宏观版本。简单来说，我的作品从我自身出发，探讨的是 “ 除了可见的外表，我还是什么？”

就像我的指纹一样，我的气味也是独一无二的身份标签，但为何我并不知晓？为何我不懂得欣赏？如果我开始用气味来投射这个世界而非视觉图像，会有什么样的结果？

抱着这个念头，通过现代科技支持，我开始采集自己的气味。使用手头能有的科学工具，我尽可能地把我的气味（我的“标签”）分解为分子，并通过这一过程记录我的气味组成，进而用化学成分重新合成了我自己的味道――你知道，我的实验室里有超过3000中化学成分，我使用它们来复制和重现我身边的各种各样的味道，来自这个我们所参与的世界的味道。而这个项目的第二个层面，则是在更广阔的城市维度。我受到麻省理工学院的委任，在2004到2006年之间进行气味图景的工程，来深度调查科技和感官之间的课题。在我的创作中，过程中的科技要远远高于在展示中的科技，比如说，我寻找气味和重现气味的过程中要用到大量的非常复杂、尖端的技术，然而最后的呈现却不是“高科技”的。

在麻省理工的项目中，我希望找到人们紧张焦虑的“气味”。那时候刚好是布什政府执政，偏执和恐怖主义的气氛弥漫在媒体上，也弥漫在美国民众之间。那时候很多老百姓都有焦虑倾向，因此我找到了21个因为种族歧视或其他各式各样原因受到焦虑情绪困扰的男人，让他们参与我的创作。这些人的选择参考了来自加州、中国、挪威和南非的心理医生的推荐意见。

我选择男人参与这个项目的原因并非因为什么数据上的理由，而只是单纯因为男性流汗更多，因此我能获得更为明显的结果。这21名参与者腋下带着一个我的设备，当他们因为紧张、焦虑流汗时，设备会探测到，并返还给我。我通过这个设备来分析他们的汗水气味，并将其分解为化学成分，最后我得到的是男人紧张时汗水味道的复制品。

接下来，我使用一种叫做“微囊化”的纳米技术（将气味分子以微型胶囊方式封装，只有触碰才可释放）对这些液体汗味制品进行封装，把气味封存进纳米单元里。接下来我使用某种粘合剂，使得这个味道能被附加到物体表面上――比如说墙面或者纸张。所以在“恐惧项目”里，墙成为了人类皮肤的隐喻，你触摸一个人的皮肤――在这里时墙壁――这个人的汗水气味便会释放出来。这便是我展现我的隐形讯息的媒介。

LZH：我想这是一个有形的讯息...在很多时候，当我们讨论到人类作为个体时，我们会讨论他的肤色、着装风格、行为习惯，另一个角度来说，你也是由社会所塑造的，因此“你”并不是完全意义上个体的“你”，因此在今天，能够意识到我们有独一无二的DNA、独一无二的味道，一些无法被掩盖或转让、使得我们成为“个体”的特点，是非常重要的。

ST：我认为，在世界上绝大部分地区（我不完全确定中国的情况），我们生来虽与世界交流，但我们却使用香水传达自身的气味。 市场在使用科学的产物，而气味也不再是日常沟通的话题。我们掩盖自己的体味，我们甚至掩盖生活环境里的各种味道，我们使用除臭剂、清洁剂、清新剂……如是等等。我想，或许因为我们认为这是一种掩藏和保护自我的方式，但是除掉了气味，大量不可见却非常重要的信息也随之流逝了。

LZH：嗯， 如果我们过多地融合这些多层次的信息，这也引发了一些当下的集体化现象：你是要做自己呢？还是要充分地介入社会？

ST：事实上是，身体的代谢，或者说作为“硬件”的身体（我把感官称为“软件”）本身的运作是独立于社会的。其中微妙的地方是，有些身体的代谢或感知过程是有意识的，有些却是无意识或者潜意识的。对于嗅觉器官鼻子来说，它的过程是潜意识的――事实是，你的鼻子对世界做出的反应，要远远在你的眼睛之前。但是因为它的工作是在潜意识层面的，我们往往不能直接地意识到。

在我的创作中，这个情况得到了改变，因为我决定要对我的嗅觉产生自主认识，这样我就能给大脑“编程”：“嘿，现在我的眼睛需要休息，让鼻子来工作”，或者说：“哦不，现在是眼睛和鼻子一起工作，耳朵可以放松……” 用这种方式，我像用电脑一样运用我自己的感官，它们就像不同的程序，可以帮我达到不同的目的。这个过程非常的有趣，它揭示了很多我以前都没有留心过的细节。